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#1 |
Member
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 90
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Hi all,
I think one thing this thread could benefit from is a visual gallery of sorts, like with the pictures that Fernando has already posted. This should help everyone get a better understanding of the swords that we are talking about, as no doubt everyone has a different image of with a specific sword looks like in their mind (I know I personally imagine a swept hilt when thinking of a rapier, but only nebulously imagine the blade as being long, pointy, and thin). To that extent with a pata I personally have the image of a generic (flat/smooth) gauntlet hilt with a broad blade, as best represented by the first image I've attached below. To somewhat diverge from my point, I feel like it is necessary to ask: has anyone seen a pata with a definite rapier (super thin & pointy) blade? I feel like the claim that "rapier blades were mounted on patas" can be debunked simply by a lack of physical, documented evidence of the practice. Though of course more swords have been produced in India than have been photographed, it is still valid (I think) to expect at least a couple of these "pata-rapiers" to be documented. More likely I think this is just a case of the previously discussed name-game, with the use of the term "rapier" meant more generically at the time, and only later misinterpreted by us forumites. As a bit of an exercise, I'd invite everyone to post images of the closest thing to a rapier-bladed pata they can find - whoever finds one mounted with a smallsword blade wins! ![]() ![]() Either way, here's my pick (the second & third images) - a pata with a pretty decently thin tapering blade, allegedly native-made from the 17th century. |
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#2 | |
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,410
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![]() Quote:
Nihl, its nice to have you posting on this, and thank you for observing and reiterating exactly what I had queried in this thread in the beginning.....were there actually these THIN narrow rapier blades ever used in khanda and pata. One of the problems we had discussed, was the dilemma of the insistence on occasion of earlier writers using the term rapier (which brings to mind the VERY narrow blades used in civilian examples) to describe blades which were actually heavier 'arming ' blades. While I agree the name game is an aggravating nuisance in many cases, when you are relying on unillustrated written sources it can be most misleading. If you have noted in the ensuing discussion, this very aspect was the source of considerable consternation, and in my post #19, I added illustrations of one pata with what appears a 'heavy rapier' blade (Rawson, 1969. #22) of the 18th c.; and a drawing of a khanda with VERY narrow rapier blade (Pant, 1980, fig. 54) among four others with wider blades. I think one of the problems with the term rapier may be that as you note, many have an image of a swept HILT...…..actually the rapier term is referring to the blade, the hilts vary. You are right though, more pictures are helpful . Thank you for noticing my question and appeal for any examples of these NARROW rapier blades. Many of the aspects concerning this dilemma are included in the text of the entries here, but so far without compelling result. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 5th June 2019 at 02:03 AM. |
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#3 |
(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
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These are the pictures i can recover from the pata i used to have ...
Visibly a field weapon, not one for parade or big shot's show off. A lenticular blade, not so sharp double edged, one fuller in the first third, slightly tapering towards the end, but not so pointy. Length 96 cms. width 25 m/m. No marks. This is to some, what would (could) be called a rapier blade. I will leave it to your discretion. On a different note, one thing that occurs is that, the smith already has to have the blade in his hands to then design the 'forte' where it is going to be mounted. . |
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#4 |
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
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In keeping with the previous train of thought , Pant (1980, p.70) has noted, "...some of the Indo-British RAPIERS, kept in the Indian museums belonging to the 18-19th c. have LONG HEAVY BLADES and very elaborate guards made up of cups, shells and loops".
Here we see that there are references to heavy blades swords, with elaborate guards made up of cups, shells and loops (rapier hilts?) which are termed 'rapier' probably due to the perception described regarding the 'hilt' but considering the entire sword a 'rapier'. This is the circumstance I was referring to in application or 'mis-application' of the term in some of the descriptions of rapier blades occurring in khanda and pata. It appears that Indian smiths were fully capable of producing very narrow blades of rapier type. Elgood (2004, p.149, 15.11) shows a katar using a cut down European rapier blade. While such narrow blades were in what I have seen, more of an anomaly, it does seem that some degree of thrusting must have been favored, as per personal preference. |
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#5 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
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Could it be that Mr. Pant is another fan of the term rapier in its non intrinsic acceptation, as so many ?. I wonder whether he is familiar with A.V.B. Norman's work which, by the way, is called the Rapier and Small Sword.
In pages 19-28 Norman weaves extensive considerations on the rapier which, not approaching their possible use in Indian patas, hopefully helps demystifying such controversial term. |
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#6 | |||
Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 428
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from "Jamdhar katari - a theory"
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...7&page=8&pp=30 Just some comments: Quote:
Quote:
The European rapier blade is the best for the real pata. It is flexible enough for Quote:
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#7 | |
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,410
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![]() Quote:
He seems to have carefully scrutinized both Egerton and Rawson toward Indian sword details, but clearly he did not approach Norman's work in this regard. |
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