Continental SEA...More than just swords & knives??

Nathaniel · 11th April 2010, 04:15 PM

I was just thinking...I've never seen any other Burmese weapon other than swords and knives....I've seen Thai pole arms......but never Burmese...you don't see much in the way of Lao either..

I've seen Naga Spears & shields...Thai shields...but not Burmese...Lao, etc

I know a lot of the SEA pole arms are greatly influenced by Chinese pole arms....but there are some pole arms that are more distinctly Thai...I wonder if there are any distinct Burmese pole arms????

I would think the British would have brought back more than just swords and daggers...

On the same note you don't see much in the way of firearms with local flare/ decoration...I've seen Japanese, Vietnamese, etc...but not Thai, Burmese, etc..

Any thoughts??? or better yet examples???

Atlantia · 11th April 2010, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathaniel

I was just thinking...I've never seen any other Burmese weapon other than swords and knives....I've seen Thai pole arms......but never Burmese...you don't see much in the way of Lao either..

I've seen Naga Spears & shields...Thai shields...but not Burmese...Lao, etc

I know a lot of the SEA pole arms are greatly influenced by Chinese pole arms....but there are some pole arms that are more distinctly Thai...I wonder if there are any distinct Burmese pole arms????

I would think the British would have brought back more than just swords and daggers...

On the same note you don't see much in the way of firearms with local flare/ decoration...I've seen Japanese, Vietnamese, etc...but not Thai, Burmese, etc..

Any thoughts??? or better yet examples???

Thats a really good point mate, Burmese especially.
They made so much varied and astonishing metalwork, as evidenced in my avatar. There must be lots of wonderful weapon types lurking under our radar!

Rick · 11th April 2010, 04:26 PM

Hi Nathaniel, there are a few threads in the archives on this subject .

Have you seen the movieThe Legend of Suriyothai ?

Lots of pole arms, elephant fighting, etc,etc.

Nathaniel · 11th April 2010, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Hi Nathaniel, there are a few threads in the archives on this subject .

Have you seen the movieThe Legend of Suriyothai ?

Lots of pole arms, elephant fighting, etc,etc.

Hey Rick...Threads on pole arms other than Thai? I've seen the Legend of Suriyothai....and I also suggested to others too to see the Thai movie: King Naruesuan..that one is even better...it's a trilogy...no subtitles so far...but maybe after the 3rd part is released in theaters this spring the English subtitle DVD will follow...that is what happen with the Chinese two part movie Red Cliff was cut down to one...and Suriyothai in it's original form is 5 hours long...and cut down to 114 minutes for the international version.

Nathaniel · 11th April 2010, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Thats a really good point mate, Burmese especially.
They made so much varied and astonishing metalwork, as evidenced in my avatar. There must be lots of wonderful weapon types lurking under our radar!

Oh, wow, I didn't realize your avatar is Burmese...I've seen some nice Burmese statues...some with even Dha in hand.

I'm surprized we don't see more variety in Burmese weapons from the UK...people have brought back polearms, muskets, shields and other things from everywhere else in the region.

aiontay · 11th April 2010, 09:50 PM

There is a coffee table photo book, "The People of Burma", or something like that. I forget the author, but the afterward is by Martin Smith(!). It has some photo from the early 20th Century showing a Kachin, Rawang or Maru as I remember, armed with a shield and spear. I loaned the book to a friend who moved and didn't get it back. Zoran Rebac, in his book "Traditional Burmese Boxing" notes that the banshay (weapons) aspect of Thaing, the traditional Burmese martial art, includes fighting with sword, lance, stick and knife.

Nathaniel · 11th April 2010, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aiontay

There is a coffee table photo book, "The People of Burma", or something like that. I forget the author, but the afterward is by Martin Smith(!). It has some photo from the early 20th Century showing a Kachin, Rawang or Maru as I remember, armed with a shield and spear. I loaned the book to a friend who moved and didn't get it back. Zoran Rebac, in his book "Traditional Burmese Boxing" notes that the banshay (weapons) aspect of Thaing, the traditional Burmese martial art, includes fighting with sword, lance, stick and knife.

Thanks for the info Ainotay. I have not seen the book you mention, but I've heard of it. I've seen some photos of the northern tribes: Kachen, Shan, Naga with weapons. But few pictures of the more Burman/ Central Burmese towards Yangoon.

These are all Shan:

Burmese smiths:

Banshay seems similar to Thai Krabi Krabong...like Chinese Wushu...modern...set demo routines. I know in Bando they like using the Kukri.

aiontay · 11th April 2010, 11:01 PM

Although I never saw it, I did meet a couple of Thiang practioners, and I'm not entirely sure it is all set demos.

The first picture is of the Shan sawbaws (chao fa) in their court costumes at a durbar held in India in the 1930s. I suspect the other photos are as well.
Neat photos.

Nathaniel · 11th April 2010, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aiontay

Although I never saw it, I did meet a couple of Thiang practioners, and I'm not entirely sure it is all set demos.

The first picture is of the Shan sawbaws (chao fa) in their court costumes at a durbar held in India in the 1930s. I suspect the other photos are as well.
Neat photos.

True...not quite like Chinese Wushu sets...and in all fairness this is one component. Burmese martial arts look formidable. You definitely see the Chinese influence in the northern states styles...

Thanks for the reference for the picture of the Shans at Dunbar. Do you know what book or source these pictures are from? I've only seem them in a post.

aiontay · 12th April 2010, 02:51 AM

Sorry, I don't know the original source of the picture. It appears in the book "The Trouser People", which I have, but I can't seem to lay my hands on right now.

It should be noted that there is a pretty long history of private armies (tat) in Burma, which continued well in to the 20th Century, so a lot of traditional Burmese weapons were replaced pretty quickly with firearms. Swords and knives obviously hung around longer since they could serve utilitarian functions as well as function as weapons, but traditional weapons arts were replaced pretty quickly. I did study a bit of the Karen sword art in Thailand.

fearn · 12th April 2010, 04:13 AM

For traditional SEA firearms, they do show up here on occasion. Check out this thread.

Otherwise, you're right, SEA is not just a land of dhas, beautiful though they are.

Glad you posted this,

F

Nathaniel · 13th April 2010, 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aiontay

Sorry, I don't know the original source of the picture. It appears in the book "The Trouser People", which I have, but I can't seem to lay my hands on right now.

It should be noted that there is a pretty long history of private armies (tat) in Burma, which continued well in to the 20th Century, so a lot of traditional Burmese weapons were replaced pretty quickly with firearms. Swords and knives obviously hung around longer since they could serve utilitarian functions as well as function as weapons, but traditional weapons arts were replaced pretty quickly. I did study a bit of the Karen sword art in Thailand.

Ainotay, Thanks for the book reference

Oh, yes, private armies...each Burmese state and tribes, etc...I think the same in Thailand...each a loose group of city- states forming a loose federation.

I'm just wondering if their are some more representative Burmese weapons other than the beautiful swords & daggers. We see Thai pole arms....but not Burmese....has anyone seen examples? or have pictures?

And even with firearms taking over traditional weapons we don't see many examples in the collecting world, such as you see in other cultures... Japanese, Vietnamese, etc I know there are some famous Thai firearms...like the one King Naresuan used to shoot across the river to kill the Burmese general.

aiontay · 13th April 2010, 12:54 PM

I'm not entirely sure why there aren't more Burmese weapons out there, but keep in mind most of those weapons would have had to have been collected pre-1940s since after that the political situation and civil war would have made it difficult to get stuff out. Lots of antiques were smuggled out since the 1940s, but I suspect trying to smuggle a pole arm used from an elephant across the Thai border was much more difficult than getting a sword across. On the other hand, why didn't those Victorians collect a bunch of those things?

When I was working on a crop substitution project in the Northern Shan State I went out to visit one of the villages we were workiing in. We had helped the Kachins buy a tractor for use by the whole community. They were using it to plow a field. As they were plowing I noticed that the counterweight on the front of the plow looked like a small cannon. I asked, and sure enough, it was a small cannon, maybe British or Burman, that someone had found out in the woods. It made a perfect counterweight to the plow. I suspect a few of those pole arms ended their days in a similarly utilitarian way.

As for private armies, you might want to check out Martin Smith's "Burma: Insurgency and the Politics of Ethnicity", and his chapter on the roots of insurgency. No pictures, but a pretty good short history of their role in Burmese history.

Atlantia · 13th April 2010, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathaniel

Oh, wow, I didn't realize your avatar is Burmese...I've seen some nice Burmese statues...some with even Dha in hand.

I'm surprized we don't see more variety in Burmese weapons from the UK...people have brought back polearms, muskets, shields and other things from everywhere else in the region.

She is Sita. There is a very similar one about a third of the way down the page in this link: Splenours of Asian Art Calcutta Museum.

Here is my statue.

there must be tons of stuff from that area in the UK, I completely agree.

Nathaniel · 14th April 2010, 12:21 PM

Beautiful! Fantastic craftsmanship! Thanks for sharing!

Nathaniel · 20th April 2010, 03:07 AM

Atlantia,

A friend who saw your statue commented that your statue is from the 1930 to 1950s and is a traditional Burmese Pwe dancer wearing the clothing of the Bagan style. "Pwe" Burmese word for a spectacular feast (theater, dance, music, marionette, etc.) He didn't think it was Sita, as she is the Indian Hindu deity, Rama's wife.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sita

He also said there is also a similar lady statue in Burma known as the lady of Pagan/ Bagan...but he was unsure of the history behind this person.

11th April 2010, 04:15 PM	#1
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Continental SEA...More than just swords & knives?? I was just thinking...I've never seen any other Burmese weapon other than swords and knives....I've seen Thai pole arms......but never Burmese...you don't see much in the way of Lao either.. I've seen Naga Spears & shields...Thai shields...but not Burmese...Lao, etc I know a lot of the SEA pole arms are greatly influenced by Chinese pole arms....but there are some pole arms that are more distinctly Thai...I wonder if there are any distinct Burmese pole arms???? I would think the British would have brought back more than just swords and daggers... On the same note you don't see much in the way of firearms with local flare/ decoration...I've seen Japanese, Vietnamese, etc...but not Thai, Burmese, etc.. Any thoughts??? or better yet examples???

11th April 2010, 04:26 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Hi Nathaniel, there are a few threads in the archives on this subject . Have you seen the movieThe Legend of Suriyothai ? Lots of pole arms, elephant fighting, etc,etc.

11th April 2010, 09:50 PM	#6
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	There is a coffee table photo book, "The People of Burma", or something like that. I forget the author, but the afterward is by Martin Smith(!). It has some photo from the early 20th Century showing a Kachin, Rawang or Maru as I remember, armed with a shield and spear. I loaned the book to a friend who moved and didn't get it back. Zoran Rebac, in his book "Traditional Burmese Boxing" notes that the banshay (weapons) aspect of Thaing, the traditional Burmese martial art, includes fighting with sword, lance, stick and knife.

11th April 2010, 11:01 PM	#8
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	Although I never saw it, I did meet a couple of Thiang practioners, and I'm not entirely sure it is all set demos. The first picture is of the Shan sawbaws (chao fa) in their court costumes at a durbar held in India in the 1930s. I suspect the other photos are as well. Neat photos.

12th April 2010, 02:51 AM	#10
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	Sorry, I don't know the original source of the picture. It appears in the book "The Trouser People", which I have, but I can't seem to lay my hands on right now. It should be noted that there is a pretty long history of private armies (tat) in Burma, which continued well in to the 20th Century, so a lot of traditional Burmese weapons were replaced pretty quickly with firearms. Swords and knives obviously hung around longer since they could serve utilitarian functions as well as function as weapons, but traditional weapons arts were replaced pretty quickly. I did study a bit of the Karen sword art in Thailand.

12th April 2010, 04:13 AM	#11
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	For traditional SEA firearms, they do show up here on occasion. Check out this thread. Otherwise, you're right, SEA is not just a land of dhas, beautiful though they are. Glad you posted this, F

13th April 2010, 12:54 PM	#13
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	I'm not entirely sure why there aren't more Burmese weapons out there, but keep in mind most of those weapons would have had to have been collected pre-1940s since after that the political situation and civil war would have made it difficult to get stuff out. Lots of antiques were smuggled out since the 1940s, but I suspect trying to smuggle a pole arm used from an elephant across the Thai border was much more difficult than getting a sword across. On the other hand, why didn't those Victorians collect a bunch of those things? When I was working on a crop substitution project in the Northern Shan State I went out to visit one of the villages we were workiing in. We had helped the Kachins buy a tractor for use by the whole community. They were using it to plow a field. As they were plowing I noticed that the counterweight on the front of the plow looked like a small cannon. I asked, and sure enough, it was a small cannon, maybe British or Burman, that someone had found out in the woods. It made a perfect counterweight to the plow. I suspect a few of those pole arms ended their days in a similarly utilitarian way. As for private armies, you might want to check out Martin Smith's "Burma: Insurgency and the Politics of Ethnicity", and his chapter on the roots of insurgency. No pictures, but a pretty good short history of their role in Burmese history.

14th April 2010, 12:21 PM	#15
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Beautiful! Fantastic craftsmanship! Thanks for sharing!

20th April 2010, 03:07 AM	#16
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Atlantia, A friend who saw your statue commented that your statue is from the 1930 to 1950s and is a traditional Burmese Pwe dancer wearing the clothing of the Bagan style. "Pwe" Burmese word for a spectacular feast (theater, dance, music, marionette, etc.) He didn't think it was Sita, as she is the Indian Hindu deity, Rama's wife. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sita He also said there is also a similar lady statue in Burma known as the lady of Pagan/ Bagan...but he was unsure of the history behind this person.