Powder horn for comments.

fernando · 15th July 2013, 06:58 PM

As already introduced in the European Forum, some nice friend bought this one in a local auction to offer it to me

.
Although in principle this would be a Portuguese example, i am a bit intrigued with its unusual overall design and also its carved stylized horse rider, as well as the other decorations.
Noteworthy is also the care taken by the artist to carve various losangles with different decorations; altogether this being a masterpiece at its level.
Has anyone seen something similar to this ?

.

Tim Simmons · 15th July 2013, 07:01 PM

Nice!

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 15th July 2013, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

As already introduced in the European Forum, some nice friend bought this one in a local auction to offer it to me

.
Although in principle this would be a Portuguese example, i am a bit intrigued with its unusual overall design and also its carved stylized horse rider, as well as the other decorations.
Noteworthy is also the care taken by the artist to carve various losangles with different decorations; altogether this being a masterpiece at its level.
Has anyone seen something similar to this ?

.

Salaams fernando ~ I happened upon this on the web ~ http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/apiv/hd_apiv.htm

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

colin henshaw · 16th July 2013, 09:11 AM

Looks interesting - reminds me a bit of Ethiopian work, with the Christian imagery...

fernando · 16th July 2013, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams fernando ~ I happened upon this on the web ~ http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/apiv/hd_apiv.htm

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

I am aware of that historical chapter, Ibrahiim, but thanks much for the link, anyhow. Some of those pieces are exhibited in the most prestigious museums ... not counting the ones in private collections

Pity my device is not an ivory salt cellar but a horn powder container

fernando · 16th July 2013, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

Looks interesting - reminds me a bit of Ethiopian work, with the Christian imagery...

Maybe a resemblance, but certainly not of Ethiopian provenance, is it Colin ?

M ELEY · 16th July 2013, 04:23 PM

Wow! Absolutely beautiful! I love the golden patina and attention to detail. Most horns don't have this degree of carving. A spectacular find, Fernando!

colin henshaw · 16th July 2013, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Maybe a resemblance, but certainly not of Ethiopian provenance, is it Colin ?

I can't say for sure whether it is or isn't Ethiopian, but very similar decorative elements as on your powder horn are to be found on other Ethiopian (Amhara) objects like crosses and magic scrolls. Such as - angels with wings, figures/faces with crowns, demons, horsemen and such like.

The zigzag carving is very African.

I don't have much literature on the subject, but will see what I can find and post anything relevant.

Regards.

colin henshaw · 16th July 2013, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

I can't say for sure whether it is or isn't Ethiopian, but very similar decorative elements as on your powder horn are to be found on other Ethiopian (Amhara) objects like crosses and magic scrolls. Such as - angels with wings, figures/faces with crowns, demons, horsemen and such like.

The zigzag carving is very African.

I don't have much literature on the subject, but will see what I can find and post anything relevant.

Regards.

Here are some details from a processional cross and a painting, as illustrated in the book "Aethiopia, Objects d'Ethiopie" published by Musee Royal De L'Afrique Centrale, Tervuren, Belgium 1996.

fernando · 16th July 2013, 10:02 PM

Thanks for the pictures, Colin; i see what you mean.
I guess however that this type of powder horns are more of European nature.
A local heavy weight collector assumes that it is certainly not Portuguese as, having several such examples in his collection, this one doesn't fit within.
He opines that its age could be situated between end 18th / beg. 19th century and its provenance might be South Italy ... or Sicily.

fernando · 16th July 2013, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Wow! Absolutely beautiful! I love the golden patina and attention to detail. Most horns don't have this degree of carving. A spectacular find, Fernando!

Thank you, my Captain

... and it cost me nothing; just a friendly gesture

.

manteris1 · 16th July 2013, 10:48 PM

very nice..........................jimmy

Jim McDougall · 17th July 2013, 07:14 AM

Ibrahiim, very astute comparison!!! which definitely led to African potential for this, and certainly Portuguese firearms were well known on Africas West Coast.
I think Colin hit it spot on, and well supported. The stance and character of that rider and the sword held seems quite comparable to Ethiopian iconography. The winged 'cherub' type figures were quite popular in 18th century Europe, and somewhat earlier in many cases, particularly in England. Also note the 'man in the moon' figure, often seen of course on sword blades from Solingen, well known in African regions in the trade commodities from the Red Sea routes.
It would not seem unlikely for an item like this to be fashioned in a diplomatic 'gift' or trade sense.

As far as provenance, it seems of course likely that these kinds of items could find thier way to many countries given those sort of circumstances. As for the demeanor of the horn, it seems compellingly African with European features and most like Ethiopian styling in those, as suggested by Colin.

The Italian suggestion may of course play in with Italy's colonial presence in then Abyssinia, so certainly plausible.

Tim Simmons · 17th July 2013, 09:44 AM

This could be European "folk art". I agree there is much to suggest an African origin. However I am very unsure that this has been carved in Africa. I do not see West African interpretations of European dress and facial features. As for Ethiopia, yes painted Icons often portray pale skin and some European like faces. Again I find the central figure, side of the face to the viewer, very unusual for Ethiopian work plus the very European face and clothes. The central figures clothes suggest European peasant costume to me. I can find examples of peasant "folk art" depictions of figures with weapons, hunting and military. The martial figures are clearly in uniform. The fact that the figure on the horn appears in peasant costume would suggest a folk hero story of some kind to me?
The figure is very easily recognised as a handsome young man dashing off with his sword to do battle. The scene does not have any overtly deep religious theme except perhaps the young man is to take battle to the forces of evil in general. I think it odd that is it were the depiction of a European warrior in Africa, the figure is not in uniform? I think a wider search is needed.

Tim Simmons · 17th July 2013, 09:21 PM

I am intrigued by the central figure and his features. The costume is interesting not African. I like this comparison, John 2 duke of Burgundy 14th century. I really cannot see any African work on this hunting powder horn.

fernando · 18th July 2013, 01:50 PM

I agree with Tim in that this would not be an African work, but perhaps on a different basis. I don't reject te idea that Africans depict European figures in their works, namely when they work on a commission basis or in production of articles to be sold in the local market to returning Europeans. The Benin ivory works here recalled by Ibrahiim, brought back by soldiers to wealthy patrons or the religious artifacts i brought from Mozambique for my mother, made by Macondes on black wood, are a self speaking evidence.
Bit in both cases they were using their own local valuable raw materials; the carving work was the fusion. I don't see an European guy commissioning a carving work depicting his nationals on a cow powder horn.
On the other hand, if i were an expert on these thinks, i would explore the the interpretation of the figures composition, as a whole. The rider, the bird, the face in the half moon and the two angels with a different representation.
How would you ghuys see that as an approach ?

fernando · 25th July 2013, 12:55 PM

Together with its home mates ... after a wash and a microcrystalline waxing.
I wouldn't know the apparently atypical hanging system the author realized for the neck end; just had to do something out of my humble ability.

.

Norman McCormick · 25th July 2013, 05:35 PM

Hi Fernando,
Found this, similar...ish, only info was 19thC and European.
My Regards,
Norman.

fernando · 25th July 2013, 07:13 PM

Thanks Norman,
That gives me an idea of how to replace the missing spout plug.

Norman McCormick · 25th July 2013, 07:21 PM

Norman McCormick · 25th July 2013, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Thanks Norman,
That gives me an idea of how to replace the missing spout plug.

15th July 2013, 06:58 PM	#1
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,641	Powder horn for comments. As already introduced in the European Forum, some nice friend bought this one in a local auction to offer it to me . Although in principle this would be a Portuguese example, i am a bit intrigued with its unusual overall design and also its carved stylized horse rider, as well as the other decorations. Noteworthy is also the care taken by the artist to carve various losangles with different decorations; altogether this being a masterpiece at its level. Has anyone seen something similar to this ? . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 1st March 2017 at 05:39 PM.

17th July 2013, 09:21 PM	#15
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	I am intrigued by the central figure and his features. The costume is interesting not African. I like this comparison, John 2 duke of Burgundy 14th century. I really cannot see any African work on this hunting powder horn. Attached Images

25th July 2013, 12:55 PM	#17
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,641	Together with its home mates ... after a wash and a microcrystalline waxing. I wouldn't know the apparently atypical hanging system the author realized for the neck end; just had to do something out of my humble ability. . Attached Images

25th July 2013, 05:35 PM	#18
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi Fernando, Found this, similar...ish, only info was 19thC and European. My Regards, Norman. Attached Images

15th July 2013, 07:01 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Nice!

16th July 2013, 09:11 AM	#4
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Looks interesting - reminds me a bit of Ethiopian work, with the Christian imagery...

16th July 2013, 04:23 PM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,066	Wow! Absolutely beautiful! I love the golden patina and attention to detail. Most horns don't have this degree of carving. A spectacular find, Fernando!

16th July 2013, 10:02 PM	#10
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,641	Thanks for the pictures, Colin; i see what you mean. I guess however that this type of powder horns are more of European nature. A local heavy weight collector assumes that it is certainly not Portuguese as, having several such examples in his collection, this one doesn't fit within. He opines that its age could be situated between end 18th / beg. 19th century and its provenance might be South Italy ... or Sicily.

16th July 2013, 10:48 PM	#12
manteris1 Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 114	very nice..........................jimmy

17th July 2013, 07:14 AM	#13
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,739	Ibrahiim, very astute comparison!!! which definitely led to African potential for this, and certainly Portuguese firearms were well known on Africas West Coast. I think Colin hit it spot on, and well supported. The stance and character of that rider and the sword held seems quite comparable to Ethiopian iconography. The winged 'cherub' type figures were quite popular in 18th century Europe, and somewhat earlier in many cases, particularly in England. Also note the 'man in the moon' figure, often seen of course on sword blades from Solingen, well known in African regions in the trade commodities from the Red Sea routes. It would not seem unlikely for an item like this to be fashioned in a diplomatic 'gift' or trade sense. As far as provenance, it seems of course likely that these kinds of items could find thier way to many countries given those sort of circumstances. As for the demeanor of the horn, it seems compellingly African with European features and most like Ethiopian styling in those, as suggested by Colin. The Italian suggestion may of course play in with Italy's colonial presence in then Abyssinia, so certainly plausible.

17th July 2013, 09:44 AM	#14
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	This could be European "folk art". I agree there is much to suggest an African origin. However I am very unsure that this has been carved in Africa. I do not see West African interpretations of European dress and facial features. As for Ethiopia, yes painted Icons often portray pale skin and some European like faces. Again I find the central figure, side of the face to the viewer, very unusual for Ethiopian work plus the very European face and clothes. The central figures clothes suggest European peasant costume to me. I can find examples of peasant "folk art" depictions of figures with weapons, hunting and military. The martial figures are clearly in uniform. The fact that the figure on the horn appears in peasant costume would suggest a folk hero story of some kind to me? The figure is very easily recognised as a handsome young man dashing off with his sword to do battle. The scene does not have any overtly deep religious theme except perhaps the young man is to take battle to the forces of evil in general. I think it odd that is it were the depiction of a European warrior in Africa, the figure is not in uniform? I think a wider search is needed.

18th July 2013, 01:50 PM	#16
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,641	I agree with Tim in that this would not be an African work, but perhaps on a different basis. I don't reject te idea that Africans depict European figures in their works, namely when they work on a commission basis or in production of articles to be sold in the local market to returning Europeans. The Benin ivory works here recalled by Ibrahiim, brought back by soldiers to wealthy patrons or the religious artifacts i brought from Mozambique for my mother, made by Macondes on black wood, are a self speaking evidence. Bit in both cases they were using their own local valuable raw materials; the carving work was the fusion. I don't see an European guy commissioning a carving work depicting his nationals on a cow powder horn. On the other hand, if i were an expert on these thinks, i would explore the the interpretation of the figures composition, as a whole. The rider, the bird, the face in the half moon and the two angels with a different representation. How would you ghuys see that as an approach ?

25th July 2013, 07:13 PM	#19
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,641	Thanks Norman, That gives me an idea of how to replace the missing spout plug.

25th July 2013, 07:21 PM	#20
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575