Solingen steel

Helleri · 25th February 2022, 02:54 PM

I don't doubt that they attempted to back engineer it. The question is how successful (if at all) were they. Maybe just in playing around with it. they figured out some things for themselves. Or maybe just the presence of it in the form of imported blades inspired smiths to up their game. Because we do eventually see the interchange of blades reversed (a lot of Indian swords eventually having German and other European blades, modified to fit their hilts).

urbanspaceman · 25th February 2022, 10:50 PM

Shotley Bridge (my forte) could produce 34 blades a day (more if they took Sunday off - which I am sure they did) with only one forging shop: Oley was the only forger there, but he obviously had family helping; even so, that is a monumental achievement.
Reference the Cotesworth MSS: he purchased 1,600 dozen blades (19,200) in 557 days at a cost of £932 between November 1710 and August 1712.
The Tower actually needed more, so Cotesworth also bought blades from an English smith named John Saunthorp (can;t find any reference to him) at a shilling a dozen cheaper; complaints rapidly rolled in, with the description "...they stand like lead..."
Mr Oley of Newcastle was regarded by all as the finest blade-smith in the country throughout the 1700s.
I find it difficult to believe that he could produce such numbers and maintain quality, but he did. His family dated back to the 14thC in the Wupper Valley.
How did he do it?

urbanspaceman · 6th March 2022, 10:41 AM

Can anyone point me in the direction of metallurgical research done to ascertain the reasons why Solingen/Germany produced such consistently superior blades?

Equally, can anyone explain why Toledo needed to reinforce their bladesmiths with Solingen craftsmen back in 1587?

fernando · 6th March 2022, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Can anyone point me in the direction of metallurgical research done to ascertain the reasons why Solingen/Germany produced such consistently superior blades?

Equally, can anyone explain why Toledo needed to reinforce their bladesmiths with Solingen craftsmen back in 1587?

A pity that i lost the email address of German Dueñas Beraiz, an expert in this Toledan sword smiths area. I have tried to redirect the question thRough the ToLedo Military Museum, where he is connected but, i am not so optimism over success.
Meanwhile i took the liberty to send you by email some lose notes on the endless process of Toledo forging ... and not only; written by the said German Dueñas Beraiz.

Keep safe.

.

urbanspaceman · 6th March 2022, 03:01 PM

Thank-you Fernando, I will read with interest.

fernando · 9th March 2022, 11:19 AM

In opposition to museums often 'forgeting' to answer our questions, this time a quick response arrived ...

"Buenas tardes, me disculpen las molestias.
Sucede que perdí la dirección de correo electrónico del Sr. Germán Dueñas Beraiz, y les pido por favor que dirijan este correo a ese señor "

Good afternoon, i apologize for the inconvenience.
It happens that i lost the email address of Mr. Germán Dueñas Beraiz, and I ask you to please address this email to that Gentleman.

" Respecto a los espaderos de Toledo, alguien en mi foro de armas antiguas ha citado una información de que, hacia 1587, Toledo consideró necesario reforzar el número de sus espaderos con artesanos llegados de Solingen.
Piensa el Sr. Beraiz que esto realmente sucedió … y en el contexto mencionado ? “

Regarding the swordsmiths of Toledo, someone in my antique weapons forum has cited information that, around 1587, Toledo considered it necessary to reinforce the number of its swordsmiths with artisans from Solingen.
Does Mr. Beraiz think that this really happened… and in the mentioned context ?

En relación a su consulta decir que no existe constancia documental de la presencia de espaderos procedentes de Solingen en los talleres toledanos de finales del XVI. Resulta muy improbable su presencia teniendo en cuenta el sistema de producción artesanal de los espaderos toledanos, que artesanos extranjeros trabajaran en Toledo en las fechas citadas.

In relation to your query, to say that there is no documentary evidence of the presence of swordsmiths from Solingen in the Toledo workshops at the end of the 16th century. It results highly unlikely, taking into account the artisanal production system of Toledo swordsmiths, that foreign craftsmen worked in Toledo on the dates mentioned.

(Mister Beraiz is the Chief Curator of the Arms Department in the Toledo Army Museum)

urbanspaceman · 10th March 2022, 01:05 PM

Thank-you Fernando.
I have found it unwise to trust everything in Bezdek's research absolutely but these are the details he gives based on Solingen parish and guild records; these are the departure dates:

1547: Andreas Munsten zu Elberfeld; 1565: Ceiles Lobach; 1580: Heinrich Kohl; 1600: Hans Ohlig; 1620: Clemens Dinger the Elder.

Munsten was an armourer (?)
Lobach is listed as produing swept and cup hilt rapiers.
Kohl was a hilt maker.
Dinger and Ohlig were grinders.

25th February 2022, 10:50 PM	#2
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 517	hard work Shotley Bridge (my forte) could produce 34 blades a day (more if they took Sunday off - which I am sure they did) with only one forging shop: Oley was the only forger there, but he obviously had family helping; even so, that is a monumental achievement. Reference the Cotesworth MSS: he purchased 1,600 dozen blades (19,200) in 557 days at a cost of £932 between November 1710 and August 1712. The Tower actually needed more, so Cotesworth also bought blades from an English smith named John Saunthorp (can;t find any reference to him) at a shilling a dozen cheaper; complaints rapidly rolled in, with the description "...they stand like lead..." Mr Oley of Newcastle was regarded by all as the finest blade-smith in the country throughout the 1700s. I find it difficult to believe that he could produce such numbers and maintain quality, but he did. His family dated back to the 14thC in the Wupper Valley. How did he do it?

6th March 2022, 10:41 AM	#3
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 517	Solingen/Germany/Toledo research Can anyone point me in the direction of metallurgical research done to ascertain the reasons why Solingen/Germany produced such consistently superior blades? Equally, can anyone explain why Toledo needed to reinforce their bladesmiths with Solingen craftsmen back in 1587?

6th March 2022, 03:01 PM	#5
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 517	Toledo notes Thank-you Fernando, I will read with interest.

9th March 2022, 11:19 AM	#6
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,647	a pleasant surprise In opposition to museums often 'forgeting' to answer our questions, this time a quick response arrived ... "Buenas tardes, me disculpen las molestias. Sucede que perdí la dirección de correo electrónico del Sr. Germán Dueñas Beraiz, y les pido por favor que dirijan este correo a ese señor " Good afternoon, i apologize for the inconvenience. It happens that i lost the email address of Mr. Germán Dueñas Beraiz, and I ask you to please address this email to that Gentleman. " Respecto a los espaderos de Toledo, alguien en mi foro de armas antiguas ha citado una información de que, hacia 1587, Toledo consideró necesario reforzar el número de sus espaderos con artesanos llegados de Solingen. Piensa el Sr. Beraiz que esto realmente sucedió … y en el contexto mencionado ? “ Regarding the swordsmiths of Toledo, someone in my antique weapons forum has cited information that, around 1587, Toledo considered it necessary to reinforce the number of its swordsmiths with artisans from Solingen. Does Mr. Beraiz think that this really happened… and in the mentioned context ? En relación a su consulta decir que no existe constancia documental de la presencia de espaderos procedentes de Solingen en los talleres toledanos de finales del XVI. Resulta muy improbable su presencia teniendo en cuenta el sistema de producción artesanal de los espaderos toledanos, que artesanos extranjeros trabajaran en Toledo en las fechas citadas. In relation to your query, to say that there is no documentary evidence of the presence of swordsmiths from Solingen in the Toledo workshops at the end of the 16th century. It results highly unlikely, taking into account the artisanal production system of Toledo swordsmiths, that foreign craftsmen worked in Toledo on the dates mentioned. (Mister Beraiz is the Chief Curator of the Arms Department in the Toledo Army Museum)

10th March 2022, 01:05 PM	#7
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 517	Toledo and Germans Thank-you Fernando. I have found it unwise to trust everything in Bezdek's research absolutely but these are the details he gives based on Solingen parish and guild records; these are the departure dates: 1547: Andreas Munsten zu Elberfeld; 1565: Ceiles Lobach; 1580: Heinrich Kohl; 1600: Hans Ohlig; 1620: Clemens Dinger the Elder. Munsten was an armourer (?) Lobach is listed as produing swept and cup hilt rapiers. Kohl was a hilt maker. Dinger and Ohlig were grinders.

25th February 2022, 02:54 PM	#1
Helleri Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Boulder Creek, CA. Posts: 202	I don't doubt that they attempted to back engineer it. The question is how successful (if at all) were they. Maybe just in playing around with it. they figured out some things for themselves. Or maybe just the presence of it in the form of imported blades inspired smiths to up their game. Because we do eventually see the interchange of blades reversed (a lot of Indian swords eventually having German and other European blades, modified to fit their hilts).