Unusual Keris Dress from where?

Naga Sasra · 23rd August 2006, 01:46 AM

Dear fellow Keris Warung Kopi members.
First congratulations with the new forum and to the moderators who keep us all in check.

The attached photos reflect for me a very unusual dress, which I am having trouble identifying. I have had this particular piece for about 30 years and had never seen anything like it before, so I more or less discarted actually put it in the bottom of the pile as being perhaps a tourist piece with an older blade.
This is where I had it until Edward Frey released the third edition of his book. This book had the addition of the Kris Archives, and there it was on page 57 lower right corner, his photo show the wrangka with the points up, where mine is down. There is also the matter of the size of the wrangka, he show his to be 5.2 in wide, mine is 11 in wide.

I would appreciate any and all information which can be added.

David · 23rd August 2006, 04:19 AM

Welcome Naga Sasra, glad you could join us. I have noted the example in Frey and certainly see the similarity. Judging from the quality of the carving and the wood i would have a hard time seeing this as "tourist" dress, but i have no idea of it's origin. The gandar reminds me of a bird with outstretched wings. Seems a nice find to me.

David · 23rd August 2006, 03:08 PM

BTW, if you hold a ruler up to the width of the Frey example in his book and then check the length you will notice that his quoted 5.2 in. measurement must be a misprint. He lists the lenght at 21.5, but the width is clearly far longer than half the length. It would appear that the ratio of width to height are fairly similar in both yours and his example.

David · 23rd August 2006, 03:40 PM

Well, i suppose i would take a guess my first inclination is to say perhaps East Jawa. Could also be Madura and i wouldn't count out the Cirebon area either.{Hope that was non-commital enough

)

Henk · 23rd August 2006, 08:59 PM

A very remarkable dress indeed. Looking at it I compare it with the early "tourist" keris the dutch soldiers brought home in the fifties of the previous century. Good blades were redressed in fancy carved dresses to bring home to Holland. I would say just like David East Java, but more possible is Madura.

Rick · 23rd August 2006, 11:43 PM

What do I know except what I've learned from books and friends .

The gestalt of the piece makes me lean more toward E. Jawa / Cirebon as the origin .

Naga Sasra ; I did not see this piece at your home (or maybe I forgot I did; so many to see) ; do you have any measurements of it ? The keris looks smallish from the pictures .

Rick

Naga Sasra · 24th August 2006, 12:07 AM

Thank you for the welcome and for the observations posted this far.

When I initially discarted it as a tourist piece, my thinking was that I had never seen anything like it before, and nor was anything published on the style of the dress, that I had access to at the time.
Another factor involved was the fact that the market was flooded with very well made carved dresses from Bali in the 50's and 60's. Some of these pieces were extraordinary dresses, some even with decent blades in them.

David, your size observation is right on the mark, and I fully concur that the size in Frey's book is a misprint.
I will also think in the direction of Cirebon, based on the carving of the handle and at the same time not discard East Jawa.

Henk, as for Madura origin anything is possible from there, as they have proven themselves as masters of most known styles, not only blades but dress as well. The keris brought back to Holland by soldiers in the late 40's early 50's were the early "tourist" pieces, the ones most people recognize are the ones with the sitting or laying down lion, or the face of garuda on the wrangka and the helmet style handle. Could the Madura people have made this one? most certainly but have they?

I would certainly like to see if anyone out there have seen anything like it before. Or can recognise the stylistic elements of this dress and the culture from where it originates.

David · 24th August 2006, 12:23 AM

Well, for me that's quite the point in discounting the "tourist" dress idea. If indeed this style of dress was being used for tourist trade would we not have seen more of them by now? Also i would think the design a bit too abstract for touristy dress which usually tends towards representational figures.
I think i am more inclined towards East Jawa or Cirebon than Madura, but as Naga Sasra points out, all are possibilities.

Naga Sasra · 24th August 2006, 01:54 AM

Rick, I was writing as you were posting and didn't see your questions until now.

The piece was in the hallway during your visit, here are the measurements:
Overall size of the piece 23.5" or 60cm, the handle is 6" or 15.3cm,
the blade is from the tip to the top of the gonjo 13" or 33cm, lenght of gandar 14" or 35.5cm, lenght of wrangka 3.5" or 8.9cm.

And yes, the blade in my opinion is not the original blade, and is fitted poorly to the top of the wrangka.

This said keep in mind that many an older Balinese blade have a gandar much longer than the lenght of the blade. I am not stating that this is Balinese, (obviously) but merely saying that some cultures purposely make the dress longer.

David, It does make quite a point in discounting the "tourist" thing, however, we can use the same rationale and say, well if it was not made for the tourist trade should we not have seen more of them as well. It is indeed abstract in nature and certainly nicely carved, could it have been the one piece the dealer had under the counter to show the discriminating tourist, the one tourist that didn't want something typically tourist stuff?

David · 24th August 2006, 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naga Sasra

David, It does make quite a point in discounting the "tourist" thing, however, we can use the same rationale and say, well if it was not made for the tourist trade should we not have seen more of them as well. It is indeed abstract in nature and certainly nicely carved, could it have been the one piece the dealer had under the counter to show the discriminating tourist, the one tourist that didn't want something typically tourist stuff?

Quite possiblly, but i still don't see exactly why we are assuming it is tourist dress to begin with. Is it merely because it is unusual and ornate?
If i am not mistaken, the length of the gandar is more determined by traditional standards of proportion than it is by the length of the blade. The keris when sheathed and worn must look correctly proportioned on the person. Is this not correct?

Henk · 24th August 2006, 08:52 AM

Gentlemen. I didn't say that this keris was tourist stuff. In literature the keris brought back by the dutch soldiers are called the very first tourstlike keris.

A very good blade in a scabbard with the lying lion and a ukiran in the shape of a woman or male figure. That are the ones we see most. I have seen here in Holland, and those are more rarely to find other dresses.

Naga Sasra, I ceretainly like this one. It is well executed with a very good blade. But the carving work does remind me to the maduran pieces our soldiers brought home. But East Java or Cirebon are certainly possible too. I remember reading in a dutch book, unfortunately I cann't remember wich one, these keris were offered to the dutch soldiers. These keris were fitted into these dresses because the young soldiers, aged 18 to 20 years liked these dresses most. The first tourist keris was developed.

VVV · 24th August 2006, 09:35 AM

Interesting thread.
I also always thought that Keris dressed like that were early Maduran tourist Keris. Even if the hilt has influence of f.i. Cirebon/Tegal Ganesha hilts or East Javanese floral hilts I find the carvings on the sheath more resembling Madura?
The reference Henk didn't remember could be D van Duuren, The Kris - An earthly approach to a cosmic symbol, page 72 (at least in the English version).

Michael

Henk · 24th August 2006, 01:43 PM

Michael,

It was Van Duuren indeed who is writing on page 78 about the keris brought back by the dutch soldiers. This keris could be considered as an early kind of touristkeris.
Your thought wasn't so bad at all.

On page 74 (in the dutch copy) he shows a maduran keris with an ukiran in the pulasir style with helmet and epaulettes, symbols of the dutch army and the winged horse on the belly of the ukiran. On the wrangka watermotives representing Madura as a seperate and from Java independent island. Madura was very loyal to the Dutch. Many soldiers for the KNIL came from Madura. For their services Maduran royals became officially the title Sultan. Princes who fought bravely became the rank of colonel. Sultans and colonels were decorated with dutch military orders. The maduran royals were very proud on this honour and represented their pride in the ukirans who became the form of militaries in uniform with helmets, epaulettes, braids and ribbons. Of course these ukirans could vary with indonesian symbols. Sometimes small dragons are found on the helmets and parts of the uniforms change into flowers or twines with leaves. The names given to these ukirans landhian langsir and landhian pulasir refer to the dutch lancer and cuirassier.

David · 24th August 2006, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

Michael,The maduran royals were very proud on this honour and represented their pride in the ukirans who became the form of militaries in uniform with helmets, epaulettes, braids and ribbons. Of course these ukirans could vary with indonesian symbols. Sometimes small dragons are found on the helmets and parts of the uniforms change into flowers or twines with leaves. The names given to these ukirans landhian langsir and landhian pulasir refer to the dutch lancer and cuirassier.

Yes, and a lovely example of the Dutch soldier's keris that you show us Henk.

But this is part of my argument for this NOT being such a keris. None of this type of representation (figurative), either dutch or Indonesian, appear in Naga Sasra's dress. If we look at the "touristy" dress that formed in Bali we also see very figurative designs such as a greatt big Kala face. Fancy and figurative seems to be what the European mindset wanted. It is also true, i think, that East jawa and Madura presented quite alot of nice wood carving in their traditional keris dress, so i am not inclined to immediately believe that this is a design created for export. It certainly could have been, i just don't see anything that implies it.
BTW, i don't think anyone was pointing your way particularly for starting the idea that this might be a tourist piece. I believe Naga Sasra began his thread with the thought.

VVV · 24th August 2006, 04:36 PM

David,

Could you please either show us a picture of an East Javanese carved sheath or give a page referral in any of the Keris books?
I only follow you on the Maduran sheaths?

Michael

David · 24th August 2006, 07:53 PM

Sorry for the confusion Michael, i wasn't referring to sheaths necessarily when i mentioned nicely carved dress. There are some wonderfully carved East Javanese hilts though. You are probably right, richly carved sheaths are more the style of Madura than East Jawa. I think what is probably swaying me towards an East Jawa origin for this keris is that the hilt seems so, though i think this form also shows up in Madura. Of course that is probably a bad indication to follow since Naga Sasra has informed us that the keris fits badly and probably isn't original to the sheath. Still an interesting mystery.

Henk · 25th August 2006, 09:26 AM

David,

Van Duuren is mentioning two things. The military ukiran the maduran developed after being honoured for their help to the dutch army. I add a picture of such a ukiran below. That is such a ukiran referring to:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

The maduran royals were very proud on this honour and represented their pride in the ukirans who became the form of militaries in uniform with helmets, epaulettes, braids and ribbons. Of course these ukirans could vary with indonesian symbols. Sometimes small dragons are found on the helmets and parts of the uniforms change into flowers or twines with leaves. The names given to these ukirans landhian langsir and landhian pulasir refer to the dutch lancer and cuirassier.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Yes, and a lovely example of the Dutch soldier's keris that you show us Henk.

But this is part of my argument for this NOT being such a keris. None of this type of representation (figurative), either dutch or Indonesian, appear in Naga Sasra's dress. If we look at the "touristy" dress that formed in Bali we also see very figurative designs such as a greatt big Kala face. Fancy and figurative seems to be what the European mindset wanted. It is also true, i think, that East jawa and Madura presented quite alot of nice wood carving in their traditional keris dress, so i am not inclined to immediately believe that this is a design created for export. It certainly could have been, i just don't see anything that implies it.
BTW, i don't think anyone was pointing your way particularly for starting the idea that this might be a tourist piece. I believe Naga Sasra began his thread with the thought.

The soldiers keris I showed you and the soldiers keris with the lying lion on the wrangka (such examples appear from time to time on ebay) are the keris brought back to Holland by the dutch soldiers as a souvenir and what Van Duuren called the first early tourist keris.
The keris Naga Sasra shows us has such an equal appearance as those keris. As i wrote before, here in Holland those keris come up from time to time. Mostly the usual "standard" soldiers keris with lying lion on the wrangka and a male or female ukiran, but sometimes in a complete different dress but still recognizable as a soldiers keris.

I prefer to speak about "soldiers keris" and not about "tourist keris". For me a tourist keris is a complete different category.

Marcokeris · 25th August 2006, 11:06 AM

I agree with Henk.
I add another "soldier" ukiran's picture

Henk · 25th August 2006, 01:29 PM

Marcokeris,

That's also a lovely example of such a maduran ukiran. Are there two lions in the shield on the belly? If so it is possibly the dutch royal weapon.

David · 25th August 2006, 03:05 PM

Henk and Marcokeris, thanks for posting these examples. I agree with you Henk that these "soldier's keris" are in a different catagory to what we often think of as a "tourist" keris, although i don't particularly like the term "tourist" keris in general as it is usually only meant to describe low quality keris, some of which might actually serve some ethnographic service such as a part of wedding attire and not actually be meant for export.
I have seen these "soldier's keris" in all levels of quality and i think they are certainly important in the overall history of the keris. I wouldn't mind finding a good example one day for my own collection.

However, i still fail to see how Naga Sasra's keris is in any way "equal" to these "soldier"s keris" other than the fact that they both have carved sheaths. I see no similarities here.

Rick · 25th August 2006, 03:39 PM

Possibly we should look at the basic elements in this dress ; the gambar has an extremely pronounced mid-rib which is an element I have not seen on Maduran gambars .

The scabbard carving is representative of simple form and extreme *repetition* ; another element that I have not seen on Maduran work . The extreme width of the gambar doesn't seem in keeping with Madurese work either nor does the shape .

Your humble moderator would deeply appreciate some postings of Cirebon kerises so that he might compare forms .

Perhaps the example in Frey III and Naga Sasra's keris are simply anomalies but that answer really doesn't satisfy .

Rick

VVV · 25th August 2006, 05:15 PM

Here is a sample what I had in mind when I wrote influence of a Cirebon/Tegal Ganesha hilt among others. It's from a friend's collection so I don't have it in bigger size.

Michael

Battara · 25th August 2006, 06:32 PM

Is the wranga ivory or bone?

Rick · 25th August 2006, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Here is a sample what I had in mind when I wrote influence of a Cirebon/Tegal Ganesha hilt among others. It's from a friend's collection so I don't have it in bigger size.

Michael

I have observed with a magnifying glass that the ukiran on the example in Frey III is practically identical to that of Naga Sasra's example of this form .

VVV · 25th August 2006, 07:30 PM

Battara, it's actually old wood.

Pity I don't have the newest Frey.
Is it possible to post the picture of the Frey Keris?

Michael

Rick · 25th August 2006, 07:42 PM

Here it is .

VVV · 25th August 2006, 09:05 PM

Thanks Rick, very resembling in style.
What does Frey say about it?

Let's look closer at the blade also.
Anybody who dares to stick out their neck on this?

Michael

Rick · 25th August 2006, 11:58 PM

Hi Michael ,
Frey , of course says nothing about it ; absolutely nothing !

David · 26th August 2006, 12:42 AM

Well, i could stick my neck out Michael, but it wouldn't really mean much since i don't really know very much.

I will say that the mendak appears to be an old (not too old, but certainly not new) lung wideng type which i believe (at least according to Solyom) would be a Surakarta form. I am not sure if such a mendak could be properly used on a Madurese keris. The hilt, of course, is not Surakarta, and since Naga Sasra believes that this blade was adapted to this sheath it would seem we have a bit of a mix 'n' match here. The blade looks more Javanese than Madurese to me, but i don't really have anything to back that up with, just a gut instinct.

Battara · 26th August 2006, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Battara, it's actually old wood.

23rd August 2006, 01:46 AM	#1
Naga Sasra Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Boca Raton, Florida, USA Posts: 108	Unusual Keris Dress from where? Dear fellow Keris Warung Kopi members. First congratulations with the new forum and to the moderators who keep us all in check. The attached photos reflect for me a very unusual dress, which I am having trouble identifying. I have had this particular piece for about 30 years and had never seen anything like it before, so I more or less discarted actually put it in the bottom of the pile as being perhaps a tourist piece with an older blade. This is where I had it until Edward Frey released the third edition of his book. This book had the addition of the Kris Archives, and there it was on page 57 lower right corner, his photo show the wrangka with the points up, where mine is down. There is also the matter of the size of the wrangka, he show his to be 5.2 in wide, mine is 11 in wide. I would appreciate any and all information which can be added. Attached Images

24th August 2006, 08:52 AM	#11
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Gentlemen. I didn't say that this keris was tourist stuff. In literature the keris brought back by the dutch soldiers are called the very first tourstlike keris. A very good blade in a scabbard with the lying lion and a ukiran in the shape of a woman or male figure. That are the ones we see most. I have seen here in Holland, and those are more rarely to find other dresses. Naga Sasra, I ceretainly like this one. It is well executed with a very good blade. But the carving work does remind me to the maduran pieces our soldiers brought home. But East Java or Cirebon are certainly possible too. I remember reading in a dutch book, unfortunately I cann't remember wich one, these keris were offered to the dutch soldiers. These keris were fitted into these dresses because the young soldiers, aged 18 to 20 years liked these dresses most. The first tourist keris was developed. Attached Images

25th August 2006, 11:06 AM	#18
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	I agree with Henk. I add another "soldier" ukiran's picture Attached Images

25th August 2006, 03:39 PM	#21
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Gentlemen Possibly we should look at the basic elements in this dress ; the gambar has an extremely pronounced mid-rib which is an element I have not seen on Maduran gambars . The scabbard carving is representative of simple form and extreme repetition ; another element that I have not seen on Maduran work . The extreme width of the gambar doesn't seem in keeping with Madurese work either nor does the shape . Your humble moderator would deeply appreciate some postings of Cirebon kerises so that he might compare forms . Perhaps the example in Frey III and Naga Sasra's keris are simply anomalies but that answer really doesn't satisfy . Rick

25th August 2006, 05:15 PM	#22
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Here is a sample what I had in mind when I wrote influence of a Cirebon/Tegal Ganesha hilt among others. It's from a friend's collection so I don't have it in bigger size. Michael Attached Images

23rd August 2006, 04:19 AM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,023	Welcome Naga Sasra, glad you could join us. I have noted the example in Frey and certainly see the similarity. Judging from the quality of the carving and the wood i would have a hard time seeing this as "tourist" dress, but i have no idea of it's origin. The gandar reminds me of a bird with outstretched wings. Seems a nice find to me.

23rd August 2006, 03:08 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,023	BTW, if you hold a ruler up to the width of the Frey example in his book and then check the length you will notice that his quoted 5.2 in. measurement must be a misprint. He lists the lenght at 21.5, but the width is clearly far longer than half the length. It would appear that the ratio of width to height are fairly similar in both yours and his example.

23rd August 2006, 03:40 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,023	Well, i suppose i would take a guess my first inclination is to say perhaps East Jawa. Could also be Madura and i wouldn't count out the Cirebon area either.{Hope that was non-commital enough )

23rd August 2006, 08:59 PM	#5
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	A very remarkable dress indeed. Looking at it I compare it with the early "tourist" keris the dutch soldiers brought home in the fifties of the previous century. Good blades were redressed in fancy carved dresses to bring home to Holland. I would say just like David East Java, but more possible is Madura.

23rd August 2006, 11:43 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	What do I know except what I've learned from books and friends . The gestalt of the piece makes me lean more toward E. Jawa / Cirebon as the origin . Naga Sasra ; I did not see this piece at your home (or maybe I forgot I did; so many to see) ; do you have any measurements of it ? The keris looks smallish from the pictures . Rick

24th August 2006, 12:07 AM	#7
Naga Sasra Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Boca Raton, Florida, USA Posts: 108	Thank you for the welcome and for the observations posted this far. When I initially discarted it as a tourist piece, my thinking was that I had never seen anything like it before, and nor was anything published on the style of the dress, that I had access to at the time. Another factor involved was the fact that the market was flooded with very well made carved dresses from Bali in the 50's and 60's. Some of these pieces were extraordinary dresses, some even with decent blades in them. David, your size observation is right on the mark, and I fully concur that the size in Frey's book is a misprint. I will also think in the direction of Cirebon, based on the carving of the handle and at the same time not discard East Jawa. Henk, as for Madura origin anything is possible from there, as they have proven themselves as masters of most known styles, not only blades but dress as well. The keris brought back to Holland by soldiers in the late 40's early 50's were the early "tourist" pieces, the ones most people recognize are the ones with the sitting or laying down lion, or the face of garuda on the wrangka and the helmet style handle. Could the Madura people have made this one? most certainly but have they? I would certainly like to see if anyone out there have seen anything like it before. Or can recognise the stylistic elements of this dress and the culture from where it originates.

24th August 2006, 12:23 AM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,023	Well, for me that's quite the point in discounting the "tourist" dress idea. If indeed this style of dress was being used for tourist trade would we not have seen more of them by now? Also i would think the design a bit too abstract for touristy dress which usually tends towards representational figures. I think i am more inclined towards East Jawa or Cirebon than Madura, but as Naga Sasra points out, all are possibilities.

24th August 2006, 01:54 AM	#9
Naga Sasra Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Boca Raton, Florida, USA Posts: 108	Rick, I was writing as you were posting and didn't see your questions until now. The piece was in the hallway during your visit, here are the measurements: Overall size of the piece 23.5" or 60cm, the handle is 6" or 15.3cm, the blade is from the tip to the top of the gonjo 13" or 33cm, lenght of gandar 14" or 35.5cm, lenght of wrangka 3.5" or 8.9cm. And yes, the blade in my opinion is not the original blade, and is fitted poorly to the top of the wrangka. This said keep in mind that many an older Balinese blade have a gandar much longer than the lenght of the blade. I am not stating that this is Balinese, (obviously) but merely saying that some cultures purposely make the dress longer. David, It does make quite a point in discounting the "tourist" thing, however, we can use the same rationale and say, well if it was not made for the tourist trade should we not have seen more of them as well. It is indeed abstract in nature and certainly nicely carved, could it have been the one piece the dealer had under the counter to show the discriminating tourist, the one tourist that didn't want something typically tourist stuff?

24th August 2006, 09:35 AM	#12
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Interesting thread. I also always thought that Keris dressed like that were early Maduran tourist Keris. Even if the hilt has influence of f.i. Cirebon/Tegal Ganesha hilts or East Javanese floral hilts I find the carvings on the sheath more resembling Madura? The reference Henk didn't remember could be D van Duuren, The Kris - An earthly approach to a cosmic symbol, page 72 (at least in the English version). Michael

24th August 2006, 01:43 PM	#13
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Michael, It was Van Duuren indeed who is writing on page 78 about the keris brought back by the dutch soldiers. This keris could be considered as an early kind of touristkeris. Your thought wasn't so bad at all. On page 74 (in the dutch copy) he shows a maduran keris with an ukiran in the pulasir style with helmet and epaulettes, symbols of the dutch army and the winged horse on the belly of the ukiran. On the wrangka watermotives representing Madura as a seperate and from Java independent island. Madura was very loyal to the Dutch. Many soldiers for the KNIL came from Madura. For their services Maduran royals became officially the title Sultan. Princes who fought bravely became the rank of colonel. Sultans and colonels were decorated with dutch military orders. The maduran royals were very proud on this honour and represented their pride in the ukirans who became the form of militaries in uniform with helmets, epaulettes, braids and ribbons. Of course these ukirans could vary with indonesian symbols. Sometimes small dragons are found on the helmets and parts of the uniforms change into flowers or twines with leaves. The names given to these ukirans landhian langsir and landhian pulasir refer to the dutch lancer and cuirassier.

24th August 2006, 04:36 PM	#15
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	David, Could you please either show us a picture of an East Javanese carved sheath or give a page referral in any of the Keris books? I only follow you on the Maduran sheaths? Michael

24th August 2006, 07:53 PM	#16
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,023	Sorry for the confusion Michael, i wasn't referring to sheaths necessarily when i mentioned nicely carved dress. There are some wonderfully carved East Javanese hilts though. You are probably right, richly carved sheaths are more the style of Madura than East Jawa. I think what is probably swaying me towards an East Jawa origin for this keris is that the hilt seems so, though i think this form also shows up in Madura. Of course that is probably a bad indication to follow since Naga Sasra has informed us that the keris fits badly and probably isn't original to the sheath. Still an interesting mystery.

25th August 2006, 01:29 PM	#19
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Marcokeris, That's also a lovely example of such a maduran ukiran. Are there two lions in the shield on the belly? If so it is possibly the dutch royal weapon.

25th August 2006, 03:05 PM	#20
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,023	Henk and Marcokeris, thanks for posting these examples. I agree with you Henk that these "soldier's keris" are in a different catagory to what we often think of as a "tourist" keris, although i don't particularly like the term "tourist" keris in general as it is usually only meant to describe low quality keris, some of which might actually serve some ethnographic service such as a part of wedding attire and not actually be meant for export. I have seen these "soldier's keris" in all levels of quality and i think they are certainly important in the overall history of the keris. I wouldn't mind finding a good example one day for my own collection. However, i still fail to see how Naga Sasra's keris is in any way "equal" to these "soldier"s keris" other than the fact that they both have carved sheaths. I see no similarities here.

25th August 2006, 06:32 PM	#23
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Is the wranga ivory or bone?

25th August 2006, 07:30 PM	#25
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Battara, it's actually old wood. Pity I don't have the newest Frey. Is it possible to post the picture of the Frey Keris? Michael

25th August 2006, 07:42 PM	#26
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Ask And Ye Shall Receive Here it is . Attached Images

25th August 2006, 09:05 PM	#27
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks Rick, very resembling in style. What does Frey say about it? Let's look closer at the blade also. Anybody who dares to stick out their neck on this? Michael

25th August 2006, 11:58 PM	#28
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Hi Michael , Frey , of course says nothing about it ; absolutely nothing !

26th August 2006, 12:42 AM	#29
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,023	Well, i could stick my neck out Michael, but it wouldn't really mean much since i don't really know very much. I will say that the mendak appears to be an old (not too old, but certainly not new) lung wideng type which i believe (at least according to Solyom) would be a Surakarta form. I am not sure if such a mendak could be properly used on a Madurese keris. The hilt, of course, is not Surakarta, and since Naga Sasra believes that this blade was adapted to this sheath it would seem we have a bit of a mix 'n' match here. The blade looks more Javanese than Madurese to me, but i don't really have anything to back that up with, just a gut instinct.