Hidden Room

B.I · 3rd January 2005, 11:33 PM

hidden at the back of a room in a museum in venice. uncatalogued and forbidden to photograph, hence the blurred images.

B.I · 3rd January 2005, 11:36 PM

more images

nechesh · 3rd January 2005, 11:46 PM

Sweet! Who let you in and where do they hide the key?

Actually quite a shame that these are not on view to the public. It looks like an impressive collection from what i can see and your photos aren't all too bad given the circumstances.
Venice seems like an unusual place for such a collection. What's the deal? Have they had these long and why do they remain uncataloged? I'm sure we can get a special coalition of kerisophile forumites to make the journal and give them a hand.

What museum is this anyway?

Spunjer · 3rd January 2005, 11:50 PM

WOW!

were there any moro weapons by any chance?

B.I · 4th January 2005, 12:01 AM

the museum is the Museo d'Arte Orientale which is housed upstairs from the contemporary art museum at Ca' Pesaro. the collection is one of the largest in japanese arms. the original collection was formed by the Conti di Bardi and composed of 30,000 pieces. apparantly it wa sold of to an antiques dealer in 1928 and then bought back by the state. the Conti travelled to asia on buying trips and i am assuming the indonesian pieces are part of his collection, and not bought from a different source at the same time. the museum holds the japanese collection in high regarda and pretty much ignores the indonesian pieces. they are situated in the last room, which is why i managed to take pictures. it is not an open museum, and the doors open every half hour and they lock you in, so time is limited.
their website - http://www.artive.arti.beniculturali...13/sala_13.htm

B.I · 4th January 2005, 12:03 AM

there were two cannon and this was the more interesting one with a double barrel.

Mark · 4th January 2005, 12:25 AM

Very very nice. They even have a couple dha! I am planning a trip to Italy this spring/summer (including Verona, where my wife has family). I think Venice just got added to the list of stops. Its not terribly far from Verona, after all.

zamboanga · 4th January 2005, 01:01 AM

wow! the double-barreled lantaka

!!!
now i have seen it...

Andrew · 4th January 2005, 02:16 AM

Oh, my.

Thanks for sharing these with us, Brian.

Battara · 4th January 2005, 02:54 AM

Nicest double barrel I have ever seen. Do they have any keris there at all...anywhere?

Radu Transylvanicus · 4th January 2005, 04:13 AM

OUTSTANDING to bring this up to our attention ! The double barelled lantaka left me just like zamboanga speechless ... And all that wealth of Malay weaponry could make most museums blush ... the proto-kerises in display (one piece handle and blade) are just ,, tres extraordinaire ,, !
Youre a good man ! By the way are you located in bella Italia or were you just vacationing from somewhere else ?

B.I · 4th January 2005, 07:52 AM

this was a holiday and finding the room was an accident. i was aware of the japanese collection but decided to miss it and concentrate on finding the ottoman arms scattered around the city. as the contemporary art museum turned out to be in the same building, i thought i would pop in.
my interest and knowledge is not in this area, but thought it must be relatively unknown as it isnt listed anywhere. another one-piece keris is in the royal armouries and apparantly dated 15thC?

gtinc · 5th January 2005, 12:51 AM

[FONT=Arial]

JPSF · 5th January 2005, 01:15 AM

B.I.,
interesting that the description is in English or were there multiple languages represented? Absolutely an astounding collection, but it's too bad there isn't easier access and information for the collector/scholar.

B.I · 5th January 2005, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPSF

B.I.,
interesting that the description is in English or were there multiple languages represented? Absolutely an astounding collection, but it's too bad there isn't easier access and information for the collector/scholar.

hi john,
long time. slight confusion, the last 2 images were from the royal armouries and were to add to the one piece keris mentioned and shown in the venice museum, hence the description in english. i took pics of everything in that room, except on malaysian cannon, which wasnt as good as the double barrel. there were no other weapons except the japanese. no kukris i'm afraid. BIofGB

DAHenkel · 5th January 2005, 12:43 PM

Interesting - it appears the coteng hilt has migrated to the tajong sheath and the tajong hilt has migrated to a Javanese with a ladrangan sheath.

Curators, you just can't trust 'em to get it right.

wilked aka Khun Deng · 5th January 2005, 02:08 PM

This is truly a find! Thanks for sharing. I don't collect keris (yet) but I truly appreciate their beauty and absolutely LOVE the detail on that carving. Amazing to find a collection this extensive in so unlikely a place.

wolviex · 5th January 2005, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAHenkel

Curators, you just can't trust 'em to get it right.

ehmmm!!

JPSF · 5th January 2005, 05:53 PM

Brian
Thanks for the great photos. You have quite a knack for clandestine "through the glass" imagery. Will the forumites get a chance to meet you in Baltimore?

B.I · 5th January 2005, 06:05 PM

hi john,
with respect to those followers of indonesian weapons, i wish they were pure indian or nepalese instead. maybe someone else will find a 'hidden room' that will excite us both.
i had not considered baltimore, but may find myself in san fran in march so you never know. we have a mutual friend who will be speaking there so this may be a good reason to turn up.
the pitt rivers is a museum that will impress many here, as the collection is more ethnographical with a huge assortment from almost every non-european nation. unfortunately the museum is so dark and dingy that earth shaking pieces are probably hidden at the back of dark display cabinets. from memory you cant take photos in there, but i know i have some somewhere, and will try and find them to see if there is anything worth posting. i do know that there are enough indian weapons for me to ignore the south east asian pieces in there (sorry).

JPSF · 5th January 2005, 08:34 PM

Baltimore is always of interest and depending on schedules there should be some good speakers (including Mr Barrett) on topics of interest to us all. Bonhams has just re-scheduled their weapons auction here in San Francisco for the 5th of April so many folks can attend both.

Andrew · 5th January 2005, 09:36 PM

Brian, it would be great to meet you at Baltimore, if you can make it.

JP, will you be bringing any goodies?

JPSF · 6th January 2005, 03:46 AM

I sent 3 koras to Baltimore last year, but they got there and I couldn't. I will bring at least one of these plus pix if Lee and Artzi can fit me into the schedule and I'll give you my 2 cents about these wicked weapons.

BluErf · 6th January 2005, 03:22 PM

Whoa, now that's what I call a keris display.

Although I do find that seeing the tajong hilt on a Javanese keris is rather disturbing.

Battara · 7th January 2005, 01:30 AM

Yes, JP, we missed you last year. I hope you are able to bring a couple of your little buddies with you and talk about them (goodie, goodie

).

John · 7th January 2005, 04:16 PM

Such an impressive array of Kerises even in Venice! Thanks for sharing. I was also hoping to see a few Jians...

Mare Rosu · 8th January 2005, 04:19 PM

B.I
Late in posting this link to Georgia's (USA) own double barrel cannon.
Thanks for your email.

Gene
http://www.ngeorgia.com/feature/adbc.html

GIO · 18th January 2012, 12:00 AM

The Venice collection was put together during a journey in the Far East of the Prince Enrico di Borbone, Conte di Bardi, from 1887 to 1889.
After the dath of the Prince, in 1906, the widow sold the entire collection to Mr. Trau (an Austrian antiquarian) who started the sale of the specimens piece by piece. The beginning of the first Word War stopped the sales (the Italian Government refused to buy the collection at It. Lire 1.800.000 - equivalent to roughly 10/12 million dollars of today - because the expense was considered as not affordable), but at the end of the war the collection was returned to Italy as part of the reward for war damages.
Part of the collection , composed of Japanese, Chinese and Indonesian items, was used, until 1945, to decorate various government offices, ministries and embassies, and now is considered definitely lost.
This is in brief the story of this huge and wonderful collection, which comprises many exceptional pieces in perfect conditions.

Years ago, I think around 1995, after a visit to the museum, I went to the office of the director - a jung lady - to ask some questions about the lack of a catalogue, the prohibition of making photographs, and of such a poor collocation (no explanation at all) of the pieces.
The answer was: the catalogue needs too a big work (i.e. lack of money),
a permission to make photographs was easily obtainable on demand, and a new space for the museum had been already found in a different palace, always on the Grand Canal which has been purchased by the Venitian Municipality in 1981. Today the museum (after 30 years !!!) is still there.

Should somebody wish to have further information about this Italian shame, I shall be happy to answer at the best of my knowledge.

sirupate · 18th January 2012, 08:49 AM

Fabulous pictures

GIO · 18th January 2012, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

WOW!

were there any moro weapons by any chance?

No moro weapons, as far as I know.
There is a number of mandaus and parangs, but kept in warehouse.

3rd January 2005, 11:33 PM	#1
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	Hidden Room hidden at the back of a room in a museum in venice. uncatalogued and forbidden to photograph, hence the blurred images. Attached Images

3rd January 2005, 11:36 PM	#2
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	more more images Attached Images

4th January 2005, 12:01 AM	#5
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	details the museum is the Museo d'Arte Orientale which is housed upstairs from the contemporary art museum at Ca' Pesaro. the collection is one of the largest in japanese arms. the original collection was formed by the Conti di Bardi and composed of 30,000 pieces. apparantly it wa sold of to an antiques dealer in 1928 and then bought back by the state. the Conti travelled to asia on buying trips and i am assuming the indonesian pieces are part of his collection, and not bought from a different source at the same time. the museum holds the japanese collection in high regarda and pretty much ignores the indonesian pieces. they are situated in the last room, which is why i managed to take pictures. it is not an open museum, and the doors open every half hour and they lock you in, so time is limited. their website - http://www.artive.arti.beniculturali...13/sala_13.htm

4th January 2005, 12:03 AM	#6
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	last image there were two cannon and this was the more interesting one with a double barrel. Attached Images

4th January 2005, 07:52 AM	#12
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	one piece keris this was a holiday and finding the room was an accident. i was aware of the japanese collection but decided to miss it and concentrate on finding the ottoman arms scattered around the city. as the contemporary art museum turned out to be in the same building, i thought i would pop in. my interest and knowledge is not in this area, but thought it must be relatively unknown as it isnt listed anywhere. another one-piece keris is in the royal armouries and apparantly dated 15thC? Attached Images

3rd January 2005, 11:46 PM	#3
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Sweet! Who let you in and where do they hide the key? Actually quite a shame that these are not on view to the public. It looks like an impressive collection from what i can see and your photos aren't all too bad given the circumstances. Venice seems like an unusual place for such a collection. What's the deal? Have they had these long and why do they remain uncataloged? I'm sure we can get a special coalition of kerisophile forumites to make the journal and give them a hand. What museum is this anyway?

3rd January 2005, 11:50 PM	#4
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	WOW! were there any moro weapons by any chance?

4th January 2005, 12:25 AM	#7
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Very very nice. They even have a couple dha! I am planning a trip to Italy this spring/summer (including Verona, where my wife has family). I think Venice just got added to the list of stops. Its not terribly far from Verona, after all.

4th January 2005, 01:01 AM	#8
zamboanga Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: zamboanga city, philippines Posts: 132	wow! the double-barreled lantaka !!! now i have seen it...

4th January 2005, 02:16 AM	#9
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Oh, my. Thanks for sharing these with us, Brian.

4th January 2005, 02:54 AM	#10
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Nicest double barrel I have ever seen. Do they have any keris there at all...anywhere?

4th January 2005, 04:13 AM	#11
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	OUTSTANDING to bring this up to our attention ! The double barelled lantaka left me just like zamboanga speechless ... And all that wealth of Malay weaponry could make most museums blush ... the proto-kerises in display (one piece handle and blade) are just ,, tres extraordinaire ,, ! Youre a good man ! By the way are you located in bella Italia or were you just vacationing from somewhere else ?

5th January 2005, 12:51 AM	#13
gtinc Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 2	Late Fathers Knife [FONT=Arial] Last edited by gtinc; 5th January 2005 at 04:42 AM.

5th January 2005, 01:15 AM	#14
JPSF Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 56	B.I., interesting that the description is in English or were there multiple languages represented? Absolutely an astounding collection, but it's too bad there isn't easier access and information for the collector/scholar.

5th January 2005, 12:43 PM	#16
DAHenkel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 125	Interesting - it appears the coteng hilt has migrated to the tajong sheath and the tajong hilt has migrated to a Javanese with a ladrangan sheath. Curators, you just can't trust 'em to get it right.

5th January 2005, 02:08 PM	#17
wilked aka Khun Deng Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oahu, Hawaii Posts: 166	What a find! This is truly a find! Thanks for sharing. I don't collect keris (yet) but I truly appreciate their beauty and absolutely LOVE the detail on that carving. Amazing to find a collection this extensive in so unlikely a place.

5th January 2005, 05:53 PM	#19
JPSF Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 56	Brian Thanks for the great photos. You have quite a knack for clandestine "through the glass" imagery. Will the forumites get a chance to meet you in Baltimore?

5th January 2005, 06:05 PM	#20
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	baltimore hi john, with respect to those followers of indonesian weapons, i wish they were pure indian or nepalese instead. maybe someone else will find a 'hidden room' that will excite us both. i had not considered baltimore, but may find myself in san fran in march so you never know. we have a mutual friend who will be speaking there so this may be a good reason to turn up. the pitt rivers is a museum that will impress many here, as the collection is more ethnographical with a huge assortment from almost every non-european nation. unfortunately the museum is so dark and dingy that earth shaking pieces are probably hidden at the back of dark display cabinets. from memory you cant take photos in there, but i know i have some somewhere, and will try and find them to see if there is anything worth posting. i do know that there are enough indian weapons for me to ignore the south east asian pieces in there (sorry).

5th January 2005, 08:34 PM	#21
JPSF Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 56	Baltimore is always of interest and depending on schedules there should be some good speakers (including Mr Barrett) on topics of interest to us all. Bonhams has just re-scheduled their weapons auction here in San Francisco for the 5th of April so many folks can attend both. Last edited by JPSF; 5th January 2005 at 09:10 PM.

5th January 2005, 09:36 PM	#22
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Brian, it would be great to meet you at Baltimore, if you can make it. JP, will you be bringing any goodies?

6th January 2005, 03:46 AM	#23
JPSF Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 56	I sent 3 koras to Baltimore last year, but they got there and I couldn't. I will bring at least one of these plus pix if Lee and Artzi can fit me into the schedule and I'll give you my 2 cents about these wicked weapons.

6th January 2005, 03:22 PM	#24
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Whoa, now that's what I call a keris display. Although I do find that seeing the tajong hilt on a Javanese keris is rather disturbing.

7th January 2005, 01:30 AM	#25
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Yes, JP, we missed you last year. I hope you are able to bring a couple of your little buddies with you and talk about them (goodie, goodie ).

7th January 2005, 04:16 PM	#26
John Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Land below the wind Posts: 135	Such an impressive array of Kerises even in Venice! Thanks for sharing. I was also hoping to see a few Jians...

8th January 2005, 04:19 PM	#27
Mare Rosu Deceased Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: USA, DEEP SOUTH, GEORGIA, Y'all hear? Posts: 121	Georgia's own double barrel cannon! B.I Late in posting this link to Georgia's (USA) own double barrel cannon. Thanks for your email. Gene http://www.ngeorgia.com/feature/adbc.html

18th January 2012, 12:00 AM	#28
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 310	The Venice collection was put together during a journey in the Far East of the Prince Enrico di Borbone, Conte di Bardi, from 1887 to 1889. After the dath of the Prince, in 1906, the widow sold the entire collection to Mr. Trau (an Austrian antiquarian) who started the sale of the specimens piece by piece. The beginning of the first Word War stopped the sales (the Italian Government refused to buy the collection at It. Lire 1.800.000 - equivalent to roughly 10/12 million dollars of today - because the expense was considered as not affordable), but at the end of the war the collection was returned to Italy as part of the reward for war damages. Part of the collection , composed of Japanese, Chinese and Indonesian items, was used, until 1945, to decorate various government offices, ministries and embassies, and now is considered definitely lost. This is in brief the story of this huge and wonderful collection, which comprises many exceptional pieces in perfect conditions. Years ago, I think around 1995, after a visit to the museum, I went to the office of the director - a jung lady - to ask some questions about the lack of a catalogue, the prohibition of making photographs, and of such a poor collocation (no explanation at all) of the pieces. The answer was: the catalogue needs too a big work (i.e. lack of money), a permission to make photographs was easily obtainable on demand, and a new space for the museum had been already found in a different palace, always on the Grand Canal which has been purchased by the Venitian Municipality in 1981. Today the museum (after 30 years !!!) is still there. Should somebody wish to have further information about this Italian shame, I shall be happy to answer at the best of my knowledge.

18th January 2012, 08:49 AM	#29
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Fabulous pictures