Kris #2

Robert · 2nd August 2011, 11:15 PM

Here is the last piece in the small collection bought for me by my wife, a Kris with what could be either a low grade silver or nickel pommel. It seems to be the only piece from this collection that did not fare well during storage. The hilt itself is loose from the blade and it is missing the asang-asang, I just happen to have an old beat up silver spoon that has volunteered to be made into a replacement. The cord wrap on the hilt is in tatters and the throat piece on the scabbard is also broken. Fortunately the brake is under the brass band and will not be seen after the repair has been made. It looks to me that the blade might have become lodged in the scabbard and someone decided to try to remove it by pure force, or it could have been stepped on at some point in time. Either way there is quite a bit of damage. The single fullered blade is 21-5/8 inches in length. These picture are what it looked like (with the hilt slipped back on in the wrong direction

) when it arrived. At the present time the hilt has been dismantled and it is being readied for new cord wrapping and the broken pieces of the scabbard are being glued back together. I will post pictures of it when it is back in one piece. Comments and opinions on this as always are greatly appreciated.

Robert

VANDOO · 3rd August 2011, 04:56 AM

I LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING THE RESTORED KRIS ,IT HAS POTENTAL TO BE QUITE NICE. A GOOD ETCH TO THE BLADE CERTIANLY WON'T HURT AND WITH THE FITTINGS REFURBISHED IT SHOULD BE A WORTHY ADDITION TO YOUR COLLECTION. ADD A BIT OF PROVENANCE FOR THE COLLECTION AND IT WILL BE A++. LOOKS LIKE YA MAY NEED A LOT OF ELBOW GREASE FOR THE PROJECT. GOOD LUCK

kai · 3rd August 2011, 09:12 AM

Hello Robert,

Quote:

a Kris with what could be either a low grade silver or nickel pommel.

The grip bands appear to be silver (maybe except one) - given the distinct patina, I'd guess at white brass rather than a low silver alloy for the pommel. Perferably have this verified on a hidden surface before reassembling the hilt though.

Quote:

It seems to be the only piece from this collection that did not fare well during storage.

Doesn't look too bad - you'll remember some threads of much more wrecked kris/keris that looked really nice after some careful restoration.

Quote:

The single fullered blade is 21-5/8 inches in length.

Looks promising - also late 19th c. I'd guess. If you're going to etch some of your Moro pieces, work on this removed blade first (much easier and more forgiving). I'd recommend staining with diluted vinegar which results in a more subdued contrast than ferric chloride but is practically identical to the traditional "coconut water" (i. e. coconut juice gone sour).

BTW, what's the length of the other kris? Any chances that the scabbards got swapped? Regarding style and age, I believe this scabbard would suit the kris with ivory pommel very well and vice versa! Some linseed oil will help protecting the wood and bring out any chatoyance, especially with the nice crosspiece.

Quote:

At the present time the hilt has been dismantled and it is being readied for new cord wrapping

Please take pics of the disassembled pieces. If the old cord is not long/stable enough to redo the wrapping, please store it separately for later analysis rather than tossing it out.

Regards,
Kai

ThePepperSkull · 3rd August 2011, 06:55 PM

^ Always a wealth of information and always appreciated, kai! I would have guessed, like robert, that this was some sort of lower grade silver as opposed to white brass.

Robert, beautiful kris! Definitely a fixer-upper, but you have a real gem! I am envious as I would love to find a kris with a white metal pommel.

Battara · 3rd August 2011, 08:31 PM

Nice piece. I would say that the kris itself is Maguindanao with a Sulu like scabbard. I base this on both styles of scabbard, hilt, and blade. Not unheard of since there was lots of trade and contact between the Sulu and Maguindanao, even datus visiting each other (as well as warfare).

ThePepperSkull · 3rd August 2011, 08:45 PM

This is something I've been wondering for a while and thought since this was a sort of appropriate thread, I might as well bring it up here:

Are there any characteristics in the kakatua style pommel that can be used to distinguish what region the kris comes from? I notice some have larger crests, some have tiny crests, some are large and some are small, some of the handles are thinner or more curved than others, while some are thicker or straighter. The circle/"swirl" on either side of the pommel near the crest can vary in size as well. Are these indicators of Sulu/Maranao/Magindanao-specific manufacture and if so, which characteristics of this specific pommel could you associate with what group? Are some groups more prone to using the kakatua style pommmel for Jungayyan or Danganan style hilts?

Battara · 3rd August 2011, 11:19 PM

It is not the pommel but the work on the hilt (one exception - junggayan hilts were not used by Maranao but by Sulu and Maguindanao). Example: style of okir work will distinguish between Sulu and Maguindanao/Maranao. Also, braided silver bands were used by both Maguindanao and Sulu (especially Sulu).

I also look at the blade, especially the "head" where the blade meets the hilt (see Cato Moro Swords ) as well as scabbard styles.

BTW - it looks like this piece had 2 clamps, both probably silver.

Robert · 4th August 2011, 05:57 AM

Hello everyone and thank you for all the great help that has been offered on the restoration and origin of this piece.

Kai, the pommel of this piece was covered in lacquer when the picture was taken and might account for the strange color and lack of patina It was after removing this protective coating and showing the true color of the metal that I made the statement that it might be either low grade silver or nickel. I never gave a thought to the possibility of it being made of white brass like you have suggested but testing will tell. The bands on the other hand are a mixture. While the two main bands, the one next to the hilt and the one next to the pommel and the two narrower bands are silver plated copper the other band that I believe was centrally located on the hilt is silver. Due to the blade length there is no possibility that the scabbards were ever swapped by accident. I have hand rubbed the wood of the scabbard with linseed oil a couple of times now and will continue with this until the wood is re-hydrated and with luck it will help restore some of the color and bring out the grain of the wood. I do plan on etching this blade in the manor that you suggested to bring out any pattern it might have. Unfortunately the original cord is nowhere rear long enough to reuse in the restoration. Being the pack rat that I am I would never have thought to throw away the original cord as it could possibly be used in some future restoration project. Again my thanks to you for all your help and suggestions on the restoration of this piece. I will be posting pictures of my progress in the restoration in hopes that by doing it in stages that if I make any mistakes in my attempt someone will point it out before I do any permanent damage.

Pepperskull, thank you for your kind words about this Kris. I feel very fortunate to have acquired it in the manor that I did regardless of the condition it is in at the present time.

Jose, Thank you again for all the help you have offered me on this and all the other items that I have posted over the years and for the possible place of origin of this piece. I am starting to believe that this Kris as well as all of the other items in this collection could possibly be of Sulu origin. As far as the clamps are concerned I can find no evidence of it ever having more than the one clamp. After removing the bands and what was left of the cord wrapping on the hilt I found that the anchor for the clamp is set into an inset in the wood and that there is no matching inset on the other side of the hilt to accommodate another anchor. There is also no tell tale shadow on the blade to suggest to me that it ever had two clamps but I could be totally wrong in my assessment.

Again my thanks for all of the help and opinions that have been so freely and graciously offered.

Robert

Battara · 4th August 2011, 11:34 PM

You are welcome Robert.

Just a note: Maguindanao used silver, swassa, and gold plating, but not the Sulu to my understanding.

2nd August 2011, 11:15 PM	#1
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Kris #2 Here is the last piece in the small collection bought for me by my wife, a Kris with what could be either a low grade silver or nickel pommel. It seems to be the only piece from this collection that did not fare well during storage. The hilt itself is loose from the blade and it is missing the asang-asang, I just happen to have an old beat up silver spoon that has volunteered to be made into a replacement. The cord wrap on the hilt is in tatters and the throat piece on the scabbard is also broken. Fortunately the brake is under the brass band and will not be seen after the repair has been made. It looks to me that the blade might have become lodged in the scabbard and someone decided to try to remove it by pure force, or it could have been stepped on at some point in time. Either way there is quite a bit of damage. The single fullered blade is 21-5/8 inches in length. These picture are what it looked like (with the hilt slipped back on in the wrong direction ) when it arrived. At the present time the hilt has been dismantled and it is being readied for new cord wrapping and the broken pieces of the scabbard are being glued back together. I will post pictures of it when it is back in one piece. Comments and opinions on this as always are greatly appreciated. Robert Attached Images Last edited by Robert Coleman; 3rd August 2011 at 12:36 AM.

3rd August 2011, 08:45 PM	#6
ThePepperSkull Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 338	This is something I've been wondering for a while and thought since this was a sort of appropriate thread, I might as well bring it up here: Are there any characteristics in the kakatua style pommel that can be used to distinguish what region the kris comes from? I notice some have larger crests, some have tiny crests, some are large and some are small, some of the handles are thinner or more curved than others, while some are thicker or straighter. The circle/"swirl" on either side of the pommel near the crest can vary in size as well. Are these indicators of Sulu/Maranao/Magindanao-specific manufacture and if so, which characteristics of this specific pommel could you associate with what group? Are some groups more prone to using the kakatua style pommmel for Jungayyan or Danganan style hilts? Last edited by ThePepperSkull; 3rd August 2011 at 09:20 PM.

3rd August 2011, 04:56 AM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING THE RESTORED KRIS ,IT HAS POTENTAL TO BE QUITE NICE. A GOOD ETCH TO THE BLADE CERTIANLY WON'T HURT AND WITH THE FITTINGS REFURBISHED IT SHOULD BE A WORTHY ADDITION TO YOUR COLLECTION. ADD A BIT OF PROVENANCE FOR THE COLLECTION AND IT WILL BE A++. LOOKS LIKE YA MAY NEED A LOT OF ELBOW GREASE FOR THE PROJECT. GOOD LUCK

3rd August 2011, 06:55 PM	#4
ThePepperSkull Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 338	^ Always a wealth of information and always appreciated, kai! I would have guessed, like robert, that this was some sort of lower grade silver as opposed to white brass. Robert, beautiful kris! Definitely a fixer-upper, but you have a real gem! I am envious as I would love to find a kris with a white metal pommel.

3rd August 2011, 08:31 PM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Nice piece. I would say that the kris itself is Maguindanao with a Sulu like scabbard. I base this on both styles of scabbard, hilt, and blade. Not unheard of since there was lots of trade and contact between the Sulu and Maguindanao, even datus visiting each other (as well as warfare).

3rd August 2011, 11:19 PM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	It is not the pommel but the work on the hilt (one exception - junggayan hilts were not used by Maranao but by Sulu and Maguindanao). Example: style of okir work will distinguish between Sulu and Maguindanao/Maranao. Also, braided silver bands were used by both Maguindanao and Sulu (especially Sulu). I also look at the blade, especially the "head" where the blade meets the hilt (see Cato Moro Swords ) as well as scabbard styles. BTW - it looks like this piece had 2 clamps, both probably silver.

4th August 2011, 05:57 AM	#8
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello everyone and thank you for all the great help that has been offered on the restoration and origin of this piece. Kai, the pommel of this piece was covered in lacquer when the picture was taken and might account for the strange color and lack of patina It was after removing this protective coating and showing the true color of the metal that I made the statement that it might be either low grade silver or nickel. I never gave a thought to the possibility of it being made of white brass like you have suggested but testing will tell. The bands on the other hand are a mixture. While the two main bands, the one next to the hilt and the one next to the pommel and the two narrower bands are silver plated copper the other band that I believe was centrally located on the hilt is silver. Due to the blade length there is no possibility that the scabbards were ever swapped by accident. I have hand rubbed the wood of the scabbard with linseed oil a couple of times now and will continue with this until the wood is re-hydrated and with luck it will help restore some of the color and bring out the grain of the wood. I do plan on etching this blade in the manor that you suggested to bring out any pattern it might have. Unfortunately the original cord is nowhere rear long enough to reuse in the restoration. Being the pack rat that I am I would never have thought to throw away the original cord as it could possibly be used in some future restoration project. Again my thanks to you for all your help and suggestions on the restoration of this piece. I will be posting pictures of my progress in the restoration in hopes that by doing it in stages that if I make any mistakes in my attempt someone will point it out before I do any permanent damage. Pepperskull, thank you for your kind words about this Kris. I feel very fortunate to have acquired it in the manor that I did regardless of the condition it is in at the present time. Jose, Thank you again for all the help you have offered me on this and all the other items that I have posted over the years and for the possible place of origin of this piece. I am starting to believe that this Kris as well as all of the other items in this collection could possibly be of Sulu origin. As far as the clamps are concerned I can find no evidence of it ever having more than the one clamp. After removing the bands and what was left of the cord wrapping on the hilt I found that the anchor for the clamp is set into an inset in the wood and that there is no matching inset on the other side of the hilt to accommodate another anchor. There is also no tell tale shadow on the blade to suggest to me that it ever had two clamps but I could be totally wrong in my assessment. Again my thanks for all of the help and opinions that have been so freely and graciously offered. Robert

4th August 2011, 11:34 PM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	You are welcome Robert. Just a note: Maguindanao used silver, swassa, and gold plating, but not the Sulu to my understanding.