Ancestors of yataghans

erlikhan · 10th December 2004, 11:33 AM

http://www.pbase.com/erlikan/inbox

There you can see 3 samples of bronze nomadic Schytian arms from Azerbaijan. 1 long sword and 2 daggers. Belongs to B.C. 1500s. Their hilt forms are too close to Turkish yataghans and karakulaks. Do you agree that these must be the far ancestors of this type? But there is a huge time gap between these bronze arms and the appearance of yataghans in 17th century. Or does anybody know samples of the lost rings in the evolution chain?

ariel · 10th December 2004, 12:27 PM

What is your definition of Yataghan vs. Karakulak?
My understanding that the latter is just Turkish "black ear" and refers to the form of the hilt. I was always told that Karakulak was a "nickname" for Yataghan.

erlikhan · 10th December 2004, 12:59 PM

karakulak and yataghan. I think in Turkey sometimes karakulak is used as a name to describe the ear shaped hilt of yataghans ,right. I used both names to define just the hilt models of the daggers in the picture, according to the nuances between the samples. The blades of the samples are sure can not be related to yataghans. Only the hilts. karakulak - black ear trasnlation is correct. I name the longer sample as karakulak, and the shorter as a more classical yataghan according to just my understanding. (Hilt of the long sword seems a perfect yataghan type too).
In Balkans and Bulgaria especially - as far as I know) karakulak hilt form was widely used on yataghan blades.(the form of the longer dagger) , and they call the weapon only "Karakulak" , instead of "Yataghan". Correct?

About the ears, an addition.
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1551
this type is called "esekkulak" , which means "donkey ear")

TVV · 11th December 2004, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erlikhan

karakulak and yataghan. I
In Balkans and Bulgaria especially - as far as I know) karakulak hilt form was widely used on yataghan blades.(the form of the longer dagger) , and they call the weapon only "Karakulak" , instead of "Yataghan". Correct?

In Bulgaria (where I am from) the term "karakulak" is used to describe a shephard's knife with a yataghan-like eared hilt. A karakulak would look like a smaller and undecorated yataghan, as the blade also resembles that of a yataghan. Regards,
Teodor

Radu Transylvanicus · 11th December 2004, 08:23 AM

TVV welcome to the Forum... Zdrasti , priyatno mi e ... I have a feeling you will be a very good asset to this team ... I was born a few miles north of you in Romania ...

TVV · 11th December 2004, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radu Transylvanicus

TVV welcome to the Forum... Zdrasti , priyatno mi e ... I have a feeling you will be a very good asset to this team ... I was born a few miles north of you in Romania ...

Hi Radu, I have been a lurker on this forum for quite a while. Interestingly enough, as I live in the Bay Area currently, now I get to be several miles north of you, as it seems.
As far as the bronze weapons go, I also think that 1500 B.C. might be a little exaggerated, to me they look quite similar to some Luristan ear-pommelled daggers dating back to c. 750 B.C. . For an example take a look at p. 137 of Michael D. Coe's book (sorry, I do not have a scanner).

Mark · 10th December 2004, 03:03 PM

One possibility is that the form survived among one or more of the nomadic Turkic tribes that superceded (or arose from) the Scythians. Since archeology on the steppes is slim at best, it might just a matter of no "missing links" having yet been found.

As the Turks moved south of the Black Sea and sort of entered into the consciousness of the West, the yatagan "appeared."

All theory, of course. What is the earliest date at which a yatagan form (other than these Scythian examples) is known?

Yannis · 11th December 2004, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erlikhan

http://www.pbase.com/erlikan/inbox

There you can see 3 samples of bronze nomadic Schytian arms from Azerbaijan. 1 long sword and 2 daggers. Belongs to B.C. 1500s.

I am little suspicius in ancient weapons. The reason is that I have seen too many fakes and wrong discriptions. If you check Ebay you will understand my point.

Sorry to ask, and dont reply if you dont want to, but who says that theese are Schytian (or Schythian) and from B.C. 1500?

In that time Stonehenge built in England and Athens had its first kings. Crete was building it's colonies, Phoenicians developed alphabet...

No Schytian (or Schythian) artifacts from that era.

What is the materiar of theese weapons? If the quality of the metal is so good as we see in pictures it is equal as the medevial knights had a nuclear bomb

They could conquer the world with them...

10th December 2004, 11:33 AM	#1
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Ancestors of yataghans http://www.pbase.com/erlikan/inbox There you can see 3 samples of bronze nomadic Schytian arms from Azerbaijan. 1 long sword and 2 daggers. Belongs to B.C. 1500s. Their hilt forms are too close to Turkish yataghans and karakulaks. Do you agree that these must be the far ancestors of this type? But there is a huge time gap between these bronze arms and the appearance of yataghans in 17th century. Or does anybody know samples of the lost rings in the evolution chain?

10th December 2004, 12:59 PM	#3
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	karakulak and yataghan. I think in Turkey sometimes karakulak is used as a name to describe the ear shaped hilt of yataghans ,right. I used both names to define just the hilt models of the daggers in the picture, according to the nuances between the samples. The blades of the samples are sure can not be related to yataghans. Only the hilts. karakulak - black ear trasnlation is correct. I name the longer sample as karakulak, and the shorter as a more classical yataghan according to just my understanding. (Hilt of the long sword seems a perfect yataghan type too). In Balkans and Bulgaria especially - as far as I know) karakulak hilt form was widely used on yataghan blades.(the form of the longer dagger) , and they call the weapon only "Karakulak" , instead of "Yataghan". Correct? About the ears, an addition. http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1551 this type is called "esekkulak" , which means "donkey ear") Last edited by erlikhan; 10th December 2004 at 01:12 PM.

10th December 2004, 12:27 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	What is your definition of Yataghan vs. Karakulak? My understanding that the latter is just Turkish "black ear" and refers to the form of the hilt. I was always told that Karakulak was a "nickname" for Yataghan.

11th December 2004, 08:23 AM	#5
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	TVV welcome to the Forum... Zdrasti , priyatno mi e ... I have a feeling you will be a very good asset to this team ... I was born a few miles north of you in Romania ...

10th December 2004, 03:03 PM	#7
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	One possibility is that the form survived among one or more of the nomadic Turkic tribes that superceded (or arose from) the Scythians. Since archeology on the steppes is slim at best, it might just a matter of no "missing links" having yet been found. As the Turks moved south of the Black Sea and sort of entered into the consciousness of the West, the yatagan "appeared." All theory, of course. What is the earliest date at which a yatagan form (other than these Scythian examples) is known?