Nimcha, literally

[TVV]

Quoting Elgood, nimcha means "half" and so should be applied to swords half the size of a normal sword.
My latest purchase falls within this category. Whether the blade was shortened on purpose to make it more suitable for fighting on board or was broken and the tip redone, it certainly is half the size. I think the markings indicate a Solingen trade blade, but Jim, Jeff and others are much more knowledgeable on the subject and I would appreciate comments.
Regards,
Teodor

[ariel]

Is it Moroccan with one quillon broken off or Algirean ( 2 quillons to start with)?

[TVV]

Originally Posted by ariel

Is it Moroccan with one quillon broken off or Algirean ( 2 quillons to start with)?

The third quillion is broken off, so I guess Moroccan.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Teodor,
A really interesting and unusual example of the Moroccan sa'if typically termed by collectors 'nimcha'. This example is unusual as it is mounted with a heavy straight blade, which is most likely a Solingen product and of the end of the 18th century. The blade seems to be of its original length as the center point fuller meets the tip as is typical for this particular cross section blade known as 'Montmorency' for the French officer who designed it in that period.
The cabalistic symbol panoply is of typical Solingen application. It seems that this type blade was more common on longer cavalry blades, but wonder if this might have been designed for shorter weapons such as those on artillery swords, and auxiliary units.
Interesting note on the quillon system, I was not aware that these hilts had variation between Morocco and Algeria. While these are typically regarded as Moroccan, it is well known they were used as far as Algeria, and interestingly there are portraits of English nobles wearing them in the 17th century.

Best regards,
Jim

[Jeff D]

Hi Teodor,

As stated by Jim this is a Solingen product, late 18th to early 19th century. The sun, moon and star motifs are typical and often confused with the much more elaborate etchings of Peter Munich. The only maker's mark that I have seen on the same blade as these etchings is J.J. Runkle (1750-1808). I don't know if he is associated with all of these symbols or if a separate engraver made them for a number of manufactures?
Now here is where I get sweaty palms, by not completely agreeing with Jim . I think this is a shortened blade, from most likely a heavy cavalry backsword. Do you have the measurements? Sweet piece!

All the Best.
Jeff

[TVV]

Jim and Jeff,
Thank you for your comments. The overall length of the entire sword is 31 inches. My feeling is also that it has been shortened. I will try to get a picture of the tip and more detailed measurements tomorrow.
Thanks,
Teodor

[Jim McDougall]

In taking a closer look at the blade tip here, it does not appear 'center point' and with that does appear shortened, and I concur with Teodor and Jeff
This makes a great deal more sense, as horsemans sword blades of the 1770's to 1780's were straight and commonly of this section.

All best regards,
JIm

[TVV]

Here is a picture of the tip .

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Teodor! The modification is clearly seen...and I need my glasses checked!

All the best,
Jim

[TVV]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you Teodor! The modification is clearly seen...and I need my glasses checked!

All the best,
Jim

Jim,

As far as your glasses are concerned, I would like to get a pair of those, as they allow you to often see things that evade other observers.
In this case we agree that the blade is shortened. Is there any chance this may have been done on purpose, to adapt the blade for naval use?

Thanks,
Teodor

[ariel]

Why necessarily naval? Couldn't the owner just be a "shorty"? Or having personal preference? Or the sword being more "parade" variety? Or... Who knows what other reason people might have had to wear a shorter sword?Certainly, other fighting swords all over the world had variable lengths.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you for the kind words Teodor!
These sa'if typically regarded as distinctly Moroccan, are actually originally an Arabian form which is why the nimcha term became associated. They became well known in the 17th century as I have noted, and commonly linked with the broadly defined maritime marauders known as the Barbary pirates.

With this it has often been presumed that these familiar swords would have had shorter cutlass length blades, but in actuality it seems that they were often mounted with straight blades of considerable length. This was because most of the blades, like commonly the case, were trade or captured blades. I often had thought it unusual for a sabre type hilt to be mounted with straight blade, but it seems to have been common than realized, as I discovered in studying early Mexican cavalry sabres mounted with straight dragoon blades.

With all of this considered, we can only speculate why the blade would have been shortened, perhaps damage to the original tip? Personal preference would indeed come into play as well, but as noted, many of these retained the long cavalry type blades. It is worthy of note as well that these Barbary pirates' action was not always confined to on board melees, but often included raids into locations on land, where a full length sword was of course more in place.

Whatever the case, it is an intriguing piece with great blade and markings, and would ,by type, be quite at home on our pirates thread!!

All the best,
Jim

[TVV]

Originally Posted by ariel

Why necessarily naval? Couldn't the owner just be a "shorty"? Or having personal preference? Or the sword being more "parade" variety? Or... Who knows what other reason people might have had to wear a shorter sword?Certainly, other fighting swords all over the world had variable lengths.

This is a great question, Ariel. Personal preference is always a possibility. Even more likely, as Jim pointed out, is a case in which the blade was broken and the tip redone.
I am not sure if the owner was a shorty, but the hilt fits very comfortably in my hand and I am 6'5". It is of about the same size of another Moroccan saif that I have, which is mounted with a long, curved blade, most likely from a 19th century French cavalry sword. Thus I do not feel it was made for a shorter person.
A parade or court weapon is an interesting suggestion. The plain iron mounts are anything but fancy though and this sword to me appears to be a user, not an adornment.
Why naval? I am not sure it was naval myself, I am just hoping so. Wishful thinking on my part .

Jim,
Thank you very much for your detailed response. I thought about posting in one of the pirates threads, but did not want to hijack it. Also, while it is nice to think that this might have been the weapon of a Barbary pirat, there is no way we can ever know it for sure. I would not mind it if this thread is expanded to a discussion of the weapons of the Barbary pirates, from Haireddin Barbarossa to the 19th century.
I will put a picture of the markings in the Old Markings discussion thread for future reference.
Best regards and many thanks to all who took the time to reply here,
Teodor

[M ELEY]

I don't think one should completely rule out the possibility that the blade could have been shortened on purpose for sea use. The reason this was such a common practice was due to the convenience of shorter blade length in tight quarters. The Moroccan/Barbary Corsairs flourished during the time period of this piece, so unless the blade was damaged at the tip and HAD to be shortened, I can't imagine why else they would have shortened it when most nimcha have longer blades. On a side note, it is interesting to remember that many Berber sabers (again, associated but not absolutely connected with pirate/maritime activity) often have European blades with the tips purposely cut into a clipped cresent point, shortening the blade. Has anyone ever determined why this was such a common decoration/practice? Used to have one with brass inlays shaped like ocean waves...didn't think of the significance until years later after I sold it. BTW, the cabalistic markings aren't exclusive to just Solingen makers, although common. I have an early 18th century Dutch hanger inscribed/sharpened and forged in Amsterdam with the exact same markings...

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

BTW, the cabalistic markings aren't exclusive to just Solingen makers, although common. I have an early 18th century Dutch hanger inscribed/sharpened and forged in Amsterdam with the exact same markings...

Hi Mark,

Who was the maker? Any photo's I would love to see it.

All the Best
Jeff

[Jim McDougall]

The Solingen phenomenon was a fascinating dynamic in the fabrication of swords that requires a great deal of detective work with trying to accurately identify many swords. As can be seen, thier products, and certainly in some cases, influences, spread far and wide. Ironically, the marks and spurious inscriptions and names of the makers in other countries, especially Spain, that were applied by Solingen makers often ended up being copied by artisans in other cultures.

The commercial concepts employed by Solingen interestingly very much resemble situations of present times. Not only did the makers of Solingen produce blades tailored to specific clientele, but in many cases, the makers went to other regions where they carried out thier trade. I believe that in passim I have seen references suggesting them going to Sweden, Russia, Netherlands and of course in one of the most famed cases, to England.
In England, the Hounslow group of makers followed by by the Shotley Bridge group were Solingen smiths who originally went there to produce weapons by invitation. While thier work clearly carried the Solingen character, including marks such as the running wolf, it was of course produced in England.
The French factories such as Klingenthal also were greatly influenced by Solingen.

The Berber sabres mentioned by Mark are truly an anomaly, with the distinctly profiled blade tips, the blades typically British M1796 light cavalry sabres. I think the jury is still out on these, but they would indeed have proven very effective in use by Barbary pirates who were more like Marines, fighting on land and sea both.

The cabalistic markings are intriguing as they add the profound element of mystery to compound that already inherently imbued in the fascinating weapons they are found upon. Many of the symbols had allegorical association to occult and arcane esoterica.In many cases numeric symbols were applied, according to Blackmore ("Hunting Weapons", Howard Blackmore, 1971) these originated on hunting swords in Germany.

Teodor, I dont think there should be such concern on hijacking a thread. As can be seen these topics are typically so closely related that one never knows in what medium clues will arise. The trademarks thread and pirate weapons thread, seem both to entwine often. I can recall reading through resources on firearms and on many occasions finding important clues that distinctly pertained to swords I was researching, and as has recently been discussed, even material on coins and other collectibles contain such data.

All very best regards,
Jim

[TVV]

The mystery "Berber" sabres are one of my favorite topics. I have one in my possession with a rather puzzling Spanish motto "Para Los Valientes Dominicanos" ("For The Brave Dominicans"), which we discussed here:
Berber? Sword with Spanish Motto

I am not sure whether we reached a conclusion regarding the origin of these - there were convincing suggestions that these may actually come from Central America. If so, this puts them right in Jack Sparrow's part of the world .