Is there a manual for yatagans?

Zifir · 3rd June 2006, 03:21 PM

I was wondering if there is any existing manual for how to fence with a yatagan. This was a favorite weapon, used in a wide geographical area by Turks, Greeks, Bulgars etc. and I am just guessing there should be a manual written in one of these languages.

ariel · 4th June 2006, 04:23 PM

Nobody answers...
I guess Erlikhan might be the source of info: a call to Askeri Muze or something like that and the dilemma will be solved.
My wild guess , there are none!
Why? Yataghans came to wide use in the 17th century and their use petered out in the first half of the 19th century. Sure, there were used even later, but by that time Turkey firmly put herself on the path of Westernization.
When in use, yataghans were kind of "private weapons". Ottomans in their imperial sunset were not very much into any systematization of anything (that was why Westernization was needed!), their army was in disarray and the Yenicheri corps (the main user of yataghans) was already destroyed and disbanded. Who needed to write manuals for the rebelling Serbs, Greeks and Bulgarians?
Ah, the Ottomans... They had so many great ideas how to run a society ( free medical care, inclusion of minorities, religious tolerance, free care for the elderly and the poor), but somehow the whole enterprise deteriorated into brutalities and paranoia of the Sultans. I guess the absolute power, indeed, corrupts absolutely....

Jim McDougall · 4th June 2006, 06:27 PM

Hi Zifir,
A most interesting question, and I think what Ariel was trying to say, without the political observations, is astutely correct as pertains to the use of the yataghan. Not that I agree or disagree with the comments on geopolitical history, its just that those type observations often set discussions on a separate course.
I completely agree with the period of use assessed by Ariel for the yataghan, which has been noted by weapons historians as yet another descendant of ancient kopis bladed forms. I also agree that it was essentially a private type of weapon, and certainly not produced for military rank and file. With that being the case, it is unlikely any formal training, nor documented material describing thier manner of use would exist. The only documented source of such descriptions may be found in period narratives, which certainly would not be likely to be found in western resources.

It would seem that the yataghan, typically carried through a sash, rather than in a mounted scabbard as worn with swords, was intended mostly for secondary use as in the melee or when firearms were spent and incoming forces overran the position. Though typically considered for dismounted use, it is known that certain yataghan influenced sabres were used by mounted auxiliary forces such as the Pandours after the mid 18th century. These were almost certainly used in virtually the same drawcut, slashing type action as most likely accorded to the yataghan, rather than any sword to sword combat implied by the term 'fencing'.

While the period of use of the yataghan had virtually expired parallel with that of the sword and the advent of the use of firearms later in the 19th century, it is known that it remained a particularly deadly weapon in combat through WWI and probably later with many Balkan forces. Possibly recorded material within resources from that period, especially concerning Albanian and Montenegrin forces, might reflect thier use of yataghans in combat.

All best regards,
Jim
j

ariel · 4th June 2006, 07:19 PM

i was not trying to provoke any "political' controversy. Just that I think that the use of particular weapons is a part and parcel of societal circumstances. This is just as applicable to armoured knights vs. bowmen in medieval Europe, or the firearms vs. sword later on.
Changes in societal structure bring about changes in military doctrine and, subsequently, weapons and equally powerful forces operate in the opposite direction.
The use of Yataghan as an "unregulated' weapon was not favourable for the development of rigid system for it's use. Would be interesting to find a real "yataghan manual" to show me the error of my ways.

Zifir · 4th June 2006, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Nobody answers...
I guess Erlikhan might be the source of info: a call to Askeri Muze or something like that and the dilemma will be solved.
My wild guess , there are none!
Why? Yataghans came to wide use in the 17th century and their use petered out in the first half of the 19th century. Sure, there were used even later, but by that time Turkey firmly put herself on the path of Westernization.
When in use, yataghans were kind of "private weapons". Ottomans in their imperial sunset were not very much into any systematization of anything (that was why Westernization was needed!), their army was in disarray and the Yenicheri corps (the main user of yataghans) was already destroyed and disbanded. Who needed to write manuals for the rebelling Serbs, Greeks and Bulgarians?
Ah, the Ottomans... They had so many great ideas how to run a society ( free medical care, inclusion of minorities, religious tolerance, free care for the elderly and the poor), but somehow the whole enterprise deteriorated into brutalities and paranoia of the Sultans. I guess the absolute power, indeed, corrupts absolutely....

As far as I know, there are many arching and horsemanship manuals written in arabic and ottoman turkish in the libraries. So my guess is why not for yatagans and other type of weapons? It is true that oral culture was very dominant among the common people and janissaries. Yet there were also literate people among the people as well as among the janissaries. And we should not forget literacy rate was always higher among non-muslims, who constituted considerable portion of the empire's population. It seems strange to me that nobody tought to write down a short manual for yatagans. And I think this has nothing to do with being systematic, scientific etc. Ottomans culture, like any other culture, had no shortage of manuals, or books on every aspect of life. Of course, as long as there is no evidence ariel's guess is closer to the truth than my guess

Zifir · 4th June 2006, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

It would seem that the yataghan, typically carried through a sash, rather than in a mounted scabbard as worn with swords, was intended mostly for secondary use as in the melee or when firearms were spent and incoming forces overran the position. Though typically considered for dismounted use, it is known that certain yataghan influenced sabres were used by mounted auxiliary forces such as the Pandours after the mid 18th century. These were almost certainly used in virtually the same drawcut, slashing type action as most likely accorded to the yataghan, rather than any sword to sword combat implied by the term 'fencing'.
j

This question came to my mind when I read in one of the chronicles that janissaries were used to duel each other with yatagans in a place called 'hendek,' literally meaning 'ditch' in Istanbul. (actually, I suspect that was a part of the surviving Byzantine moat in the Galata district of Istanbul).

I can't say i am much knowledgable in the etymology of the term 'fencing', also in english language as you can see

, but if we include fighting with sabers in the category fencing, can't we use the term 'fencing' for yatagans also?

ariel · 4th June 2006, 08:35 PM

Archery was an elite sport in the Ottoman Empire and there were elite archery units; I would not be surprised if there was something systematic on archery.
Yataghan was a weapon of "brigands" and unruly Janissaries (they were not allowed to carry swords and guns outside the barracks and a Yataghan could pass for a "knife").
I guess it was beneath the dignity of "serious people" to write official manuals for Yataghan use.
The Balkan area was under Ottoman control and did not have regular armies until eventual independence. Any resistance, if at all, was a guerilla-type and those do not publish manuals, and after the independence yataghans became not very important: artillery, rifles, uniforms and medals, medals, medals were at the top of priorities.
I know that some sword manuals were published at the West and in Russia as late as at the end of 19th century (maybe even later) and fencing exercises were required , but.... who cared anymore? The anachronistic cavalry went the way of the Dodo bird and infantrymen carried enough junk to bother with a yet another heavy piece of metal. The glamour of ivory nadles, corals, gold inscriptions and silver scabbards just faded away...

Jim McDougall · 4th June 2006, 09:15 PM

Hi Ariel,
Did not mean to imply that you were trying to provoke any controversy, just trying to reemphasize that sometimes comments with political reference do send certain readers off on such tangents, and we lose track of the original discussion. You do very well at observing and expressing yourself so please excuse my qualification of your comments

I agree with your note that the societal circumstances certainly do impact the nature of weapons used and with regard to Zifir's original question, the manner in which they are used accordingly. An inexperienced or untrained peasant forced into action in dramatic circumstances would certainly wield a weapon in any way found possible contrary to those who regularly use such weapons.

Zifir,
Interesting detail on the term 'hendek' (=ditch) suggesting duelling in moat. Those type facts are fascinating examples often relating in many cases to colloquial terms applied to certain weapons, though obviously not specifically this instance. For example, in Balkans and Greece I have been told that the term 'karakulak' (=black ears?) is often colloquially applied to the yataghan (looking forward to you and Ariel's comments on this

As you note, the term 'fencing' does not necessarily apply to sword to sword combat, and as you have well explained, may be used to describe the general method of use of an edged weapon. Point well taken (no pun intended

!

It seems the yataghan is one of those well known weapons that always is included in reference books on swords and edged weapons, but virtually no reference to history, development or use are typically included. The only book I know of that specifically applies to yataghans is
"Jataghane:Aus dem Historichen Museum von Kroatien in Zagreb"
published by the Landeszueghaus am Landesmusem Joanneum Graz in 1976.
I found it as Library of Congress holding NK6771 Y8 P 68 .
It is mostly a catalog with some text, not in English unfortunately, but lots of captioned examples in plates.
In Burton ("Book of the Sword", 1884 p.134) he describes the yataghan as having a beautifully curved line of blade which coincides accurately with ther motion of the wrist in cutting.

It would be interesting to see if more comments on the history and development of the yataghan might be brought forward here, in addition to hopefully anyone presenting possible resources for thier manner of use.

Best regards,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 4th June 2006, 09:45 PM

I have stopped fencing in the last 2-4 years, I should get back to it but I would be in the veterans class

.

I would imagine as long as the distal end of any slashing weapon is not too heavy then ordinary sabre practice would most likely be quite suitable. The heavier weapons are usually to crash through armour or padding except for cavalry were the weapon is used at speed and a shock weapon, the light cavalry sabre more of a harassing weapon.

The moves for a heavy short sword cannot be that different from sabre or even stick fighting for that matter. The more I have thought about martial arts

a bit like military intelligence

, the more I see a universal basic though there are obviously some specialisations.

Zifir · 5th June 2006, 12:00 AM

ariel,
I am not really sure if janissaries were able to carry regular yatagans outside their barracks. Actually, in one of my first posts in this forum, I asked a similar question:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2157

I belive they were only allowed to carry yatagan knives, legally at least. But I might be mistaken also.

I agree that yatagan was the favorite weapon of brigands, rebels and so on. But are not there many other examples of yatagans, decorated with precious gems, and were products of fine craftsmanship. I bet these were not produced for people with limited means or brigands (as long as they did not persuade the real owners to communalize them, of course

)

And for the unruly character of janissaries, well.., I can dispute against that for hours

ariel · 5th June 2006, 01:50 AM

I once posted a thread here and nobody was interested.
Are you now?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2072
I think this is a fantastic story !!!!
But, perhaps, I am overenthusiastic..... decide for yourself.

Emanuel · 5th June 2006, 04:27 AM

Hello,
I have stumbled upon a little book on Romanian history/culture, and in its "16th century" chapter there is an old print of "Ottoman Dignitaries" in full courtly dress wearing yataghan. If courtiers wore such a weapon, wouldn't it be plausible that they were instructed in some standard martial art to use it effectively and gracefully -like western fencing? I will scan and post the print tomorrow.
If the yataghan was considered a knife/short-sword, was it ever used in conjunction with the kilic or other bladed weapons?

Emanuel

Emanuel · 5th June 2006, 04:36 AM

Hello Ariel,
The question of the oldest yataghan has been bugging me since you posted that old example. If the earliest yataghan dates from 1526/27 or even 1460/61, how were janissaries equipped prior to the introduction of this weapon? Did they use kilic?

Regards,
Emanuel

Zifir · 5th June 2006, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I once posted a thread here and nobody was interested.
Are you now?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2072
I think this is a fantastic story !!!!
But, perhaps, I am overenthusiastic..... decide for yourself.

This is indeed a very interesting piece of information. In fact, Selim I was said to order forced migration of one thousand artisans from Tabriz to Istanbul after its conquest. The reference to the Tekelu tribe is very interesting. I am not sure if there is any connection but there is another name used for yatagans in turkish: 'Varsak'; which is also the name of the one of the Kizilbash tribes which constituted Shah Ismail's federation.

Emanuel · 10th June 2006, 02:56 AM

Took a while, but here are the scans I mentioned of Ottoman dignitaries from the 16th century wearing yataghan in their sash.

Emanuel

ErnestoJuan · 11th June 2006, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zifir

I was wondering if there is any existing manual for how to fence with a yatagan. This was a favorite weapon, used in a wide geographical area by Turks, Greeks, Bulgars etc. and I am just guessing there should be a manual written in one of these languages.

Hi Zifir, I have found this manual in the library of the Topkapi museum. Here is the translation:

Dear customer,

Congratulations with your new yataghan. We have put a lot of effort in making your yataghan experience the best one there is. Please read the operations manual below.

note:
- keep away from children.
-do not use item to comb your horse or camel.
- when storing the item for a long period, make sure that the blade is treated with camel fat.

Operations manual:

When encountering the enemy, quickly draw the sword. Cut of any limb to demobilise the enemy. Preferably, chop of the enemy's head to quickly end the ecounter. Remove any blood from the blade. Put sword back in the scabbard.

If you have any questions please do not hesitate to send a horse courier to our main office in Izmir.

Sincerely,

Zurnazenbaşı İbrahim Ağa, marketing manager.

Ottoman Arms Inc. Since 500. Preferred suplier of the house of Osmanli.

Zifir · 11th June 2006, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErnestoJuan

Hi Zifir, I have found this manual in the library of the Topkapi museum. Here is the translation:

Dear customer,

Congratulations with your new yataghan. We have put a lot of effort in making your yataghan experience the best one there is. Please read the operations manual below.

note:
- keep away from children.
-do not use item to comb your horse or camel.
- when storing the item for a long period, make sure that the blade is treated with camel fat.

Operations manual:

When encountering the enemy, quickly draw the sword. Cut of any limb to demobilise the enemy. Preferably, chop of the enemy's head to quickly end the ecounter. Remove any blood from the blade. Put sword back in the scabbard.

If you have any questions please do not hesitate to send a horse courier to our main office in Izmir.

Sincerely,

Zurnazenbaşı İbrahim Ağa, marketing manager.

Ottoman Arms Inc. Since 500. Preferred suplier of the house of Osmanli.

Your orientalist imagination and creativity certainly deserves an applause....

ariel · 11th June 2006, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

Took a while, but here are the scans I mentioned of Ottoman dignitaries from the 16th century wearing yataghan in their sash.

Emanuel

Are you sure these are 16th century?
I am dubious: there were not many European travellers to Turkey at that time and the style of drawing is more like 18th-19th centuries. Where is it from?

Emanuel · 12th June 2006, 03:50 AM

I had the same thought, these drawings could very well be 19th century, and the book does not provide any reference or detail about it except the caption. I will look for books on Ottoman court dress and costumes and see if the image can be corroborated.

Andrew · 12th June 2006, 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErnestoJuan

Hi Zifir, I have found this manual in the library of the Topkapi museum. Here is the translation:

Dear customer,

Congratulations with your new yataghan. We have put a lot of effort in making your yataghan experience the best one there is. Please read the operations manual below.

note:
- keep away from children.
-do not use item to comb your horse or camel.
- when storing the item for a long period, make sure that the blade is treated with camel fat.

Operations manual:

When encountering the enemy, quickly draw the sword. Cut of any limb to demobilise the enemy. Preferably, chop of the enemy's head to quickly end the ecounter. Remove any blood from the blade. Put sword back in the scabbard.

If you have any questions please do not hesitate to send a horse courier to our main office in Izmir.

Sincerely,

Zurnazenbaşı İbrahim Ağa, marketing manager.

Ottoman Arms Inc. Since 500. Preferred suplier of the house of Osmanli.

Is this a joke? I'm genuinely curious? The use of "smilies" or "emoticons" often helps convey one's intent, particularly when communicating with such an imprecise medium as text, on an international discussion board.

Here are some examples:

Using one (or more of these) can avoid misunderstandings and hurt feelings. It can also make my life a bit easier because I can enjoy discussing and reading about edged weapons instead of moderating arguments between members and reading PMs and emails from upset people.

Thanks for your consideration.

Andrew · 12th June 2006, 05:00 AM

Quote:

Not that I agree or disagree with the comments on geopolitical history, its just that those type observations often set discussions on a separate course.

(Sorry to do this to you, Jim.

)

I agree. It is a rare discussion, indeed, that is made better by such comments. Further, as a whole, our forum and our experience here is so much richer and rewarding when we avoid this type of thing.

kronckew · 12th June 2006, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...in Balkans and Greece I have been told that the term 'karakulak' (=black ears?) is often colloquially applied to the yataghan ...

My Balkan/Bulgar Karakulak Yataghan (27" loa) to illustrate:

closeup of horn eared scales on grip

no hilt strapping, bolster forged integral to the weapon, no makers marks, carving or any decoration

ErnestoJuan · 12th June 2006, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

Is this a joke? I'm genuinely curious? The use of "smilies" or "emoticons" often helps convey one's intent, particularly when communicating with such an imprecise medium as text, on an international discussion board.

Here are some examples:

Using one (or more of these) can avoid misunderstandings and hurt feelings. It can also make my life a bit easier because I can enjoy discussing and reading about edged weapons instead of moderating arguments between members and reading PMs and emails from upset people.

Thanks for your consideration.

Well, in fact; I really found this manual. No, of course not. It was meant as a joke. Apparently, one or some forum members were seriously upset by my writing. If so, I apologise. No harm intended.

Upset member(s): why did not you send me a PM instead of Andrew? I don't bite

EJ.

Andrew · 12th June 2006, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErnestoJuan

Well, in fact; I really found this manual. No, of course not. It was meant as a joke. Apparently, one or some forum members were seriously upset by my writing. If so, I apologise. No harm intended.

Upset member(s): why did not you send me a PM instead of Andrew? I don't bite

EJ.

Thanks, EJ.

Zifir · 12th June 2006, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

Took a while, but here are the scans I mentioned of Ottoman dignitaries from the 16th century wearing yataghan in their sash.

Emanuel

Manolo,
These look like janissaries. As Ariel and you suggested there might be also some confusion about dating. (These much look like the 18th and the early 19th century dresses to me)

For the first one on the left I am not sure. But the second one on the left is a serdengecti ( janissary volunteer), the third one is a karakollukcu (a janissary orderly) and the last one is a harbeci (janissary guardsman).

Emanuel · 13th June 2006, 12:41 AM

Hello Zifir,
Thanks for identifying the ranks and dress! I have just started reading about janissaries and they're quite fascinating. I've seen and handled two yataghan this week and now I really want one, many in fact.

Just to clarify one thing: the famous janissary scimitars idealised by Europeans were in fact kilic right?

If these drawings show 18th-19th century dress, are there any records that show earlier costumes?
Emanuel

Zifir · 13th June 2006, 06:29 AM

Kılıç is the exact equivalent of the word 'sword' in Turkish. In that sense, it is a generic word. You can call both a 19th century saber and a 15th century scimitar as kılıçs and gramatically there won't be any mistake in that

Same is true for the word shamsir. In the ottoman context, the only difference is probably while common people called a sword as kılıç, the elite prefered the arabic word shamsir. Within this general category of shamsir/kılıç there are many variations.

There are many experts in ottoman arms here, which i am not, and I think they can better explain the differences in detail.

For the earlier examples of the dress, there are many miniatures and drawings. To give you one example, this is a sketch by Gentile Bellini or by one of his associates. The man in the sketch was probably a member of janissary cavalry (sipahi) of the 15th century.

Emanuel · 13th June 2006, 03:29 PM

Thanks for the picture, I also stumbled upon it in my searches. I found a number of books on Ottoman dress -mostly in Turkish- but none of them with images

By kılıç I was referring to the sabre variant with the yelman widening at the tip. I had read a mention that yeniceri used a double-edged sabre, so this is the only Islamic saber I could think of that corresponds to this description. The variant without yelman are single-edged no?

From these images and from what I've read so far, I understand that yeniceri wore minimal armour/padding, and yet they were formidable adversaries. To fight successfully with little protection implies considerable skill - their schools obviously provided quality training. I wonder if any state records about the acemi oglan yeniceri school could shine some light on the existence of manuals...

Emanuel

ariel · 13th June 2006, 10:15 PM

Check this site:

http://www.atlant-tpg.ru/aka.html

This is a Russian Publishing house "Atlant". They have a book called Janissari: with very detailed summaries in English, ~ 1/3 of total total book.
The same book appears often on e-bay.
Great pictures, detailed info about ranks, structure, weapons, you name it.

3rd June 2006, 03:21 PM	#1
Zifir Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Istanbul Posts: 228	Is there a manual for yatagans? I was wondering if there is any existing manual for how to fence with a yatagan. This was a favorite weapon, used in a wide geographical area by Turks, Greeks, Bulgars etc. and I am just guessing there should be a manual written in one of these languages.

4th June 2006, 09:15 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Hi Ariel, Did not mean to imply that you were trying to provoke any controversy, just trying to reemphasize that sometimes comments with political reference do send certain readers off on such tangents, and we lose track of the original discussion. You do very well at observing and expressing yourself so please excuse my qualification of your comments I agree with your note that the societal circumstances certainly do impact the nature of weapons used and with regard to Zifir's original question, the manner in which they are used accordingly. An inexperienced or untrained peasant forced into action in dramatic circumstances would certainly wield a weapon in any way found possible contrary to those who regularly use such weapons. Zifir, Interesting detail on the term 'hendek' (=ditch) suggesting duelling in moat. Those type facts are fascinating examples often relating in many cases to colloquial terms applied to certain weapons, though obviously not specifically this instance. For example, in Balkans and Greece I have been told that the term 'karakulak' (=black ears?) is often colloquially applied to the yataghan (looking forward to you and Ariel's comments on this As you note, the term 'fencing' does not necessarily apply to sword to sword combat, and as you have well explained, may be used to describe the general method of use of an edged weapon. Point well taken (no pun intended ! It seems the yataghan is one of those well known weapons that always is included in reference books on swords and edged weapons, but virtually no reference to history, development or use are typically included. The only book I know of that specifically applies to yataghans is "Jataghane:Aus dem Historichen Museum von Kroatien in Zagreb" published by the Landeszueghaus am Landesmusem Joanneum Graz in 1976. I found it as Library of Congress holding NK6771 Y8 P 68 . It is mostly a catalog with some text, not in English unfortunately, but lots of captioned examples in plates. In Burton ("Book of the Sword", 1884 p.134) he describes the yataghan as having a beautifully curved line of blade which coincides accurately with ther motion of the wrist in cutting. It would be interesting to see if more comments on the history and development of the yataghan might be brought forward here, in addition to hopefully anyone presenting possible resources for thier manner of use. Best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 4th June 2006 at 10:46 PM.

10th June 2006, 02:56 AM	#15
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Scans Took a while, but here are the scans I mentioned of Ottoman dignitaries from the 16th century wearing yataghan in their sash. Emanuel Attached Images

13th June 2006, 06:29 AM	#27
Zifir Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Istanbul Posts: 228	Kılıç is the exact equivalent of the word 'sword' in Turkish. In that sense, it is a generic word. You can call both a 19th century saber and a 15th century scimitar as kılıçs and gramatically there won't be any mistake in that Same is true for the word shamsir. In the ottoman context, the only difference is probably while common people called a sword as kılıç, the elite prefered the arabic word shamsir. Within this general category of shamsir/kılıç there are many variations. There are many experts in ottoman arms here, which i am not, and I think they can better explain the differences in detail. For the earlier examples of the dress, there are many miniatures and drawings. To give you one example, this is a sketch by Gentile Bellini or by one of his associates. The man in the sketch was probably a member of janissary cavalry (sipahi) of the 15th century. Attached Images

4th June 2006, 04:23 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Nobody answers... I guess Erlikhan might be the source of info: a call to Askeri Muze or something like that and the dilemma will be solved. My wild guess , there are none! Why? Yataghans came to wide use in the 17th century and their use petered out in the first half of the 19th century. Sure, there were used even later, but by that time Turkey firmly put herself on the path of Westernization. When in use, yataghans were kind of "private weapons". Ottomans in their imperial sunset were not very much into any systematization of anything (that was why Westernization was needed!), their army was in disarray and the Yenicheri corps (the main user of yataghans) was already destroyed and disbanded. Who needed to write manuals for the rebelling Serbs, Greeks and Bulgarians? Ah, the Ottomans... They had so many great ideas how to run a society ( free medical care, inclusion of minorities, religious tolerance, free care for the elderly and the poor), but somehow the whole enterprise deteriorated into brutalities and paranoia of the Sultans. I guess the absolute power, indeed, corrupts absolutely....

4th June 2006, 06:27 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Hi Zifir, A most interesting question, and I think what Ariel was trying to say, without the political observations, is astutely correct as pertains to the use of the yataghan. Not that I agree or disagree with the comments on geopolitical history, its just that those type observations often set discussions on a separate course. I completely agree with the period of use assessed by Ariel for the yataghan, which has been noted by weapons historians as yet another descendant of ancient kopis bladed forms. I also agree that it was essentially a private type of weapon, and certainly not produced for military rank and file. With that being the case, it is unlikely any formal training, nor documented material describing thier manner of use would exist. The only documented source of such descriptions may be found in period narratives, which certainly would not be likely to be found in western resources. It would seem that the yataghan, typically carried through a sash, rather than in a mounted scabbard as worn with swords, was intended mostly for secondary use as in the melee or when firearms were spent and incoming forces overran the position. Though typically considered for dismounted use, it is known that certain yataghan influenced sabres were used by mounted auxiliary forces such as the Pandours after the mid 18th century. These were almost certainly used in virtually the same drawcut, slashing type action as most likely accorded to the yataghan, rather than any sword to sword combat implied by the term 'fencing'. While the period of use of the yataghan had virtually expired parallel with that of the sword and the advent of the use of firearms later in the 19th century, it is known that it remained a particularly deadly weapon in combat through WWI and probably later with many Balkan forces. Possibly recorded material within resources from that period, especially concerning Albanian and Montenegrin forces, might reflect thier use of yataghans in combat. All best regards, Jim j

4th June 2006, 07:19 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	i was not trying to provoke any "political' controversy. Just that I think that the use of particular weapons is a part and parcel of societal circumstances. This is just as applicable to armoured knights vs. bowmen in medieval Europe, or the firearms vs. sword later on. Changes in societal structure bring about changes in military doctrine and, subsequently, weapons and equally powerful forces operate in the opposite direction. The use of Yataghan as an "unregulated' weapon was not favourable for the development of rigid system for it's use. Would be interesting to find a real "yataghan manual" to show me the error of my ways.

4th June 2006, 08:35 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Archery was an elite sport in the Ottoman Empire and there were elite archery units; I would not be surprised if there was something systematic on archery. Yataghan was a weapon of "brigands" and unruly Janissaries (they were not allowed to carry swords and guns outside the barracks and a Yataghan could pass for a "knife"). I guess it was beneath the dignity of "serious people" to write official manuals for Yataghan use. The Balkan area was under Ottoman control and did not have regular armies until eventual independence. Any resistance, if at all, was a guerilla-type and those do not publish manuals, and after the independence yataghans became not very important: artillery, rifles, uniforms and medals, medals, medals were at the top of priorities. I know that some sword manuals were published at the West and in Russia as late as at the end of 19th century (maybe even later) and fencing exercises were required , but.... who cared anymore? The anachronistic cavalry went the way of the Dodo bird and infantrymen carried enough junk to bother with a yet another heavy piece of metal. The glamour of ivory nadles, corals, gold inscriptions and silver scabbards just faded away...

4th June 2006, 09:45 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,736	I have stopped fencing in the last 2-4 years, I should get back to it but I would be in the veterans class . I would imagine as long as the distal end of any slashing weapon is not too heavy then ordinary sabre practice would most likely be quite suitable. The heavier weapons are usually to crash through armour or padding except for cavalry were the weapon is used at speed and a shock weapon, the light cavalry sabre more of a harassing weapon. The moves for a heavy short sword cannot be that different from sabre or even stick fighting for that matter. The more I have thought about martial arts a bit like military intelligence , the more I see a universal basic though there are obviously some specialisations.

5th June 2006, 12:00 AM	#10
Zifir Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Istanbul Posts: 228	ariel, I am not really sure if janissaries were able to carry regular yatagans outside their barracks. Actually, in one of my first posts in this forum, I asked a similar question: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2157 I belive they were only allowed to carry yatagan knives, legally at least. But I might be mistaken also. I agree that yatagan was the favorite weapon of brigands, rebels and so on. But are not there many other examples of yatagans, decorated with precious gems, and were products of fine craftsmanship. I bet these were not produced for people with limited means or brigands (as long as they did not persuade the real owners to communalize them, of course ) And for the unruly character of janissaries, well.., I can dispute against that for hours

5th June 2006, 01:50 AM	#11
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I once posted a thread here and nobody was interested. Are you now? http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2072 I think this is a fantastic story !!!! But, perhaps, I am overenthusiastic..... decide for yourself.

5th June 2006, 04:27 AM	#12
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello, I have stumbled upon a little book on Romanian history/culture, and in its "16th century" chapter there is an old print of "Ottoman Dignitaries" in full courtly dress wearing yataghan. If courtiers wore such a weapon, wouldn't it be plausible that they were instructed in some standard martial art to use it effectively and gracefully -like western fencing? I will scan and post the print tomorrow. If the yataghan was considered a knife/short-sword, was it ever used in conjunction with the kilic or other bladed weapons? Emanuel

5th June 2006, 04:36 AM	#13
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello Ariel, The question of the oldest yataghan has been bugging me since you posted that old example. If the earliest yataghan dates from 1526/27 or even 1460/61, how were janissaries equipped prior to the introduction of this weapon? Did they use kilic? Regards, Emanuel

12th June 2006, 03:50 AM	#19
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	I had the same thought, these drawings could very well be 19th century, and the book does not provide any reference or detail about it except the caption. I will look for books on Ottoman court dress and costumes and see if the image can be corroborated.

13th June 2006, 12:41 AM	#26
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello Zifir, Thanks for identifying the ranks and dress! I have just started reading about janissaries and they're quite fascinating. I've seen and handled two yataghan this week and now I really want one, many in fact. Just to clarify one thing: the famous janissary scimitars idealised by Europeans were in fact kilic right? If these drawings show 18th-19th century dress, are there any records that show earlier costumes? Emanuel

13th June 2006, 03:29 PM	#28
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Thanks for the picture, I also stumbled upon it in my searches. I found a number of books on Ottoman dress -mostly in Turkish- but none of them with images By kılıç I was referring to the sabre variant with the yelman widening at the tip. I had read a mention that yeniceri used a double-edged sabre, so this is the only Islamic saber I could think of that corresponds to this description. The variant without yelman are single-edged no? From these images and from what I've read so far, I understand that yeniceri wore minimal armour/padding, and yet they were formidable adversaries. To fight successfully with little protection implies considerable skill - their schools obviously provided quality training. I wonder if any state records about the acemi oglan yeniceri school could shine some light on the existence of manuals... Emanuel

13th June 2006, 10:15 PM	#29
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Check this site: http://www.atlant-tpg.ru/aka.html This is a Russian Publishing house "Atlant". They have a book called Janissari: with very detailed summaries in English, ~ 1/3 of total total book. The same book appears often on e-bay. Great pictures, detailed info about ranks, structure, weapons, you name it.