Seeking Help with Blade Marks

Cathey · 23rd April 2016, 09:16 AM

Hi Guys

I recently picked up this brass hilted small sword circa 1680-1720 I think. The blade does have letters in the fuller and the typical anchor mark but I need assistance to identify them and hopefully the maker. From what I can make out under a magnifying glass it appears to be XX L S X MINI XX followed by the anchor mark. Any assistance will be most gratefully received.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 25th April 2016, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi Guys

I recently picked up this brass hilted small sword circa 1680-1720 I think. The blade does have letters in the fuller and the typical anchor mark but I need assistance to identify them and hopefully the maker. From what I can make out under a magnifying glass it appears to be XX L S X MINI XX followed by the anchor mark. Any assistance will be most gratefully received.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Salaams Cathey .. I am sure you will be familiar with http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/...scription.html and its fine references however I post this in case others may not have seen the references attached to that document which go some way to laying down some theory as to the meanings of Latin inscriptions on Sword Blades... even though they are older than the project sword you illustrate...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Cathey · 25th April 2016, 01:02 AM

Hi

I was checking out AYLWARD, J.D. THE SMALL SWORD IN ENGLAND its History, its Forms, its Makers, and is Masters pp 64, 74-75. In this book he makes mention that brass cast hilted small swords often had earlier rapier blades cut down as required. I think this has an earlier rapier blade, I just wish I could match the letters with a known maker.

Cheers Cathey

Cathey · 25th April 2016, 01:39 AM

Hi Guys, just revised the details on this sword, still seeking assistance with blade markings.

Transitional Rapier with marked blade

I recently picked up this brass hilted transitional Rapier/Small Sword circa 1680-1720 I think.
Overall Length: 38” 96.3 cm
Blade length: 31” 78.6 cm
Blade widest point: 1 ¼” 3.2 cm
Hilt widest point: 5” 12.7 cm
Inside grip length: 4 ¼” 10.5 cm
Marks, etc.: engraved XX L S X M I N I XX

The blade does have letters in the fuller and the typical anchor mark but I need assistance to identify them and hopefully the maker. From what I can make out under a magnifying glass it appears to be XX L S X MINI XX followed by the anchor mark. According to AYLWARD, J.D. THE SMALL SWORD IN ENGLAND its History, it’s Forms, its Makers, and is Masters pp 64, 74-75 brass hilted small swords often had earlier rapier blades cut down. Looking at the width of the broad sword blade I think this is such an example. Any assistance identifying the signature in the fuller would be gratefully received.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Jim McDougall · 25th April 2016, 08:02 PM

I am curious on the 'anchor' mark, any chance of an image?
While they seem to be often thought of as standard, there are sometimes variations.
I think the assessment of a cut down rapier blade seems quite reasonable and for the period noted of latter 17th c.
Aylward (1945, p.55) does indeed note a brass hilted 18th c. sword,with such a blade:
"...the curious thing one remarks about it being that it is always furnished with a double edged blade of rapier type which is often an actual 17th c.
one cut down and still signed by Aiala or Sahagun or at the least en Toledo' in that case with the wolf mark sometimes contradicting that assertion".
Obviously the wolf mark meaning the 'Passau' wolf instantly denoting German rather than Spanish attribution. However, I have personally not ever as I recall ever seen that combination.

While Aylward speaks about the brass hilts having a good deal of opposition from established makers of the finer hilts, he notes they had become well established after first quarter 18th c

It would seem the configuration of 'x's and words correspond to blades of the period in the late 17th and likely earlier, but this does to be a transitional blade as noted.
Similar inscriptions are X EN X MENE XX and again terminated by the 'anchor'.
The word 'MINI' may be a variant of the mene word, which is somewhat apocryphal but alludes to early Biblical references from the Book of Daniel etc. I have seen the meaning of IN MENE to mean 'in mind', but again there are many interpretations, and this may be another variant. Whatever the case it seems most likely of Solingen in late 17thc.

The excellent link to Latin inscriptions entered by Ibrahiim is truly helpful in trying to decipher many of these phrases and words so often found on blades, with many of them actually acrostics and in many cases with numeric equivilents (often used in Cabalistic cases).

fernando · 28th April 2016, 12:01 PM

Hi Cathey,
I regret that, up to now, you don't have a precise decoding of the whole inscription. For me, the non deciphering of a mark is like loosing a battle.
Whether the two first letters (LS) could be the initials of the blade smith, or part of the whole inscription setup, is something yet to discover. Amazing that MINI, a term close to more often seen IN MENE, has for some sources the same representation, while for others, MINI is short for IN NOMINE DOMINI, so a an abreviation of "In the name of God", while (IN) MENE could be translated as "numbered or accounted for", an ancient term used to show fear from God; in the more dramatic interpretation "God has numbered your kingdom and put an end to it".
Maybe within time some member comes up to enlighten you (us).

23rd April 2016, 09:16 AM	#1
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 276	Seeking Help with Blade Marks Hi Guys I recently picked up this brass hilted small sword circa 1680-1720 I think. The blade does have letters in the fuller and the typical anchor mark but I need assistance to identify them and hopefully the maker. From what I can make out under a magnifying glass it appears to be XX L S X MINI XX followed by the anchor mark. Any assistance will be most gratefully received. Cheers Cathey and Rex Attached Images

25th April 2016, 01:02 AM	#3
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 276	AYLWARD, J.D. THE SMALL SWORD IN ENGLAND Hi I was checking out AYLWARD, J.D. THE SMALL SWORD IN ENGLAND its History, its Forms, its Makers, and is Masters pp 64, 74-75. In this book he makes mention that brass cast hilted small swords often had earlier rapier blades cut down as required. I think this has an earlier rapier blade, I just wish I could match the letters with a known maker. Cheers Cathey

25th April 2016, 01:39 AM	#4
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 276	Revised details Hi Guys, just revised the details on this sword, still seeking assistance with blade markings. Transitional Rapier with marked blade I recently picked up this brass hilted transitional Rapier/Small Sword circa 1680-1720 I think. Overall Length: 38” 96.3 cm Blade length: 31” 78.6 cm Blade widest point: 1 ¼” 3.2 cm Hilt widest point: 5” 12.7 cm Inside grip length: 4 ¼” 10.5 cm Marks, etc.: engraved XX L S X M I N I XX The blade does have letters in the fuller and the typical anchor mark but I need assistance to identify them and hopefully the maker. From what I can make out under a magnifying glass it appears to be XX L S X MINI XX followed by the anchor mark. According to AYLWARD, J.D. THE SMALL SWORD IN ENGLAND its History, it’s Forms, its Makers, and is Masters pp 64, 74-75 brass hilted small swords often had earlier rapier blades cut down. Looking at the width of the broad sword blade I think this is such an example. Any assistance identifying the signature in the fuller would be gratefully received. Cheers Cathey and Rex

25th April 2016, 08:02 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,767	I am curious on the 'anchor' mark, any chance of an image? While they seem to be often thought of as standard, there are sometimes variations. I think the assessment of a cut down rapier blade seems quite reasonable and for the period noted of latter 17th c. Aylward (1945, p.55) does indeed note a brass hilted 18th c. sword,with such a blade: "...the curious thing one remarks about it being that it is always furnished with a double edged blade of rapier type which is often an actual 17th c. one cut down and still signed by Aiala or Sahagun or at the least en Toledo' in that case with the wolf mark sometimes contradicting that assertion". Obviously the wolf mark meaning the 'Passau' wolf instantly denoting German rather than Spanish attribution. However, I have personally not ever as I recall ever seen that combination. While Aylward speaks about the brass hilts having a good deal of opposition from established makers of the finer hilts, he notes they had become well established after first quarter 18th c It would seem the configuration of 'x's and words correspond to blades of the period in the late 17th and likely earlier, but this does to be a transitional blade as noted. Similar inscriptions are X EN X MENE XX and again terminated by the 'anchor'. The word 'MINI' may be a variant of the mene word, which is somewhat apocryphal but alludes to early Biblical references from the Book of Daniel etc. I have seen the meaning of IN MENE to mean 'in mind', but again there are many interpretations, and this may be another variant. Whatever the case it seems most likely of Solingen in late 17thc. The excellent link to Latin inscriptions entered by Ibrahiim is truly helpful in trying to decipher many of these phrases and words so often found on blades, with many of them actually acrostics and in many cases with numeric equivilents (often used in Cabalistic cases). Last edited by Jim McDougall; 25th April 2016 at 08:41 PM.

28th April 2016, 12:01 PM	#6
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Hi Cathey, I regret that, up to now, you don't have a precise decoding of the whole inscription. For me, the non deciphering of a mark is like loosing a battle. Whether the two first letters (LS) could be the initials of the blade smith, or part of the whole inscription setup, is something yet to discover. Amazing that MINI, a term close to more often seen IN MENE, has for some sources the same representation, while for others, MINI is short for IN NOMINE DOMINI, so a an abreviation of "In the name of God", while (IN) MENE could be translated as "numbered or accounted for", an ancient term used to show fear from God; in the more dramatic interpretation "God has numbered your kingdom and put an end to it". Maybe within time some member comes up to enlighten you (us).