Meteorite again

mariusgmioc · 21st July 2019, 06:59 PM

Interesting question! I hope you will get an equally interesting answer!

Jean · 21st July 2019, 08:49 PM

I am seriously doubting that meteoric materials was or is added in many kris blades but Alan will probably tell us more about it

I own several krisses supposedly containing meteoric materials according to the seller (see pic) but I take it with a pinch of salt...

Regards

A. G. Maisey · 21st July 2019, 10:17 PM

Jean, I'm just a wee bit sick & tired of this meteorite thing.

Yes, meteoritic material was used in some keris in Central Jawa. It is perhaps reasonable to hypothesise that meteorite was used in a few other keris prior to the Prambanan Fall. But it is not possible to know with any certainty which keris it was used in, unless one actually put it there oneself, or saw meteoritic material, that was known positively to be meteoritic material placed into the forging that was then further processed into a keris.

You are absolutely correct Jean:-meteoritic material is not known to have been used in many keris , but in only a very limited number of keris produced in Central Jawa from the end of the 18th century up until the present.

Seerp, I have used meteoritic material in blades, I have used it in knife blades, I have consolidated meteoritic material into a small billets that were subsequently used as the contrasting material in several keris. In both the knife blades and the keris blades the quantity of material used was not weighed, this would be without any point at all. The quantity of meteoritic material used was judged by eye, in exactly the same way that other contrasting materials are judged:-

sufficient is sufficient, too little is not enough, too much is unnecessary.

There are no sets of scales in a forge, but there is a smith, and that smith has the experience necessary to make judgements.

I know of no tradition that requires meteoritic material to be placed in any particular place in a blade. Frankly, and taking account of the way in which pamor is made, I can see no way of placing meteoritic material in any particular place, other than by adding it at the end of the forging process as pamor tambal, and that would seem to be counter to the philosophy involved, and most certainly not at all possible using the techniques that were used in Central Jawa to turn meteoritic material into pamor.

In respect of what the maker expects from the addition of meteoritic material to a keris, I would most gently suggest that this is the wrong question, and even if the right question were to be asked, I would not be prepared to answer it.

What I can do is to say that the reason I added it was because I had been told it could not be done and that meteorite in blades was something that was part legend, part myth, and a tiny part reality. The secret had been lost.

This was in the second half of the 1970's. Bill Moran in the USA was making knife blades using meteoritic material. The "Keris Revolution" had not yet started in Jawa, there had been a few little scratchings around the edges but it was to be a few more years before craftsmen were actually producing keris and making a living from this. If Bill Moran could weld meteoritic material, so could I. Now anybody who can make a chocolate cake and who has a gas forge can weld and use meteoritic material. It is just another material. No big deal.

David · 21st July 2019, 10:52 PM

Thank you Alan.
I don't know that i can say what mystic power as Empu expects from more or less meteorite. As Alan points out, that is probably the wrong question really. But i think i can say what a keris dealer might expect and it is measured in rupiah, dollars and cents.

A. G. Maisey · 21st July 2019, 11:16 PM

That's cruel David, purely cruel.

This can be downloaded if you are able to push the right buttons:-

"The Magical Life of Things" --- Margaret J. Wiener

It is a nice little addition to furthering an understanding of the keris, nothing new, not an expose of hidden knowledge, just a simple, commonsense commentary.

Pauzan Pusposukadgo used to believe that much of the "mystical/magical" belief surrounding the keris was due to the involvement of the Dutch. I personally think that Dutch influence was only one factor.

The people of Jawa & Bali do understand the world in a way that differs from the way in which people from European based societies understand the world, particularly post-industrial European based cultures.

Not only is understanding different, but the societal system of behaviour is different. Javanese people will normally try to provide an answer to a question that they sense the questioner expects, not necessarily an accurate answer, but one that will please the questioner.

The keris in some circumstance could be considered to be a "magically charged" object, but that "magic" cannot be understood unless one understands the Javanese mode of thought and World View.

Seerp Visser · 22nd July 2019, 03:48 AM

Jean/Alan

Two major pieces of the Prambanan meteorite were transported into the kraton of Solo. One piece in 1784 and one in 1797
(Meteoorijzer te Soerakarta, Natuurkundig tijdschrift voor Nederlandsch Indie, Vol 29, 1867, page 267).
A bigger piece and a smaller. The biggest piece was estimated to have a volume of about one cubic meter. One cubic meter will have had a weight of about 7,900 kgs.

In 1867, the smaller piece was consumed.
In 1904 (107 years later) An Austrian ethnologist visits the meteorite in the kraton of Solo and gives the dimensions from what is left of the bigger piece. From these measurements a weight can be calculated of about 1,300 kgs.
So 6,600 kgs of the bigger piece of meteorite were consumed.

Photographs of the meteorite (Indische courant 1939, Frey 1989) show not too much movement of the big piece since 1904.

So when we accept what Dr. Groneman writes, that for a Keris about 200 grams of meteoritic iron was used (Nikkelijzer, 1904), then we can make an estimate how many Keris, lances and some other objects (as table knives) were made with meteoritic iron as pamor material.

When the meteorite was used for keris only, than, from the bigger piece, about 33,000 Keris were made with meteoritic iron.

We dream further.
Suppose the smaller piece consumed in 1867 was, originally, one third, in weight, from the bigger piece (so 2,600 kgs). In that case another 13,000 keris were made.

Also literature mentions that many, many smaller pieces of the meteorite were found.
In 1904 that material was all, or nearly all, consumed according to Dr. Groneman.

Suppose all smaller meteoritic material together was the quantity of the smaller piece earlier consumed in Solo.
Than another 13,000 keris were made with meteoritic iron.

Above numbers total 59,000 keris made with the use of meteoritic iron as pamor material in middle Java.
And that in the period between around 1750 and 1904 or about 150 years.

Are that many Keris? Are that not many Keris? For middle Java only? I don't know.
Suppose Empu's used less meteorite for a Keris or more that should influence the results of course.

A. G. Maisey · 22nd July 2019, 05:40 AM

Seerp, have you ever worked with meteoritic material?

1Kg put into the first weld does not equal 1Kg after the material has been washed, to wash the material I used, it needed around 10 welds. Most of that meteorite finished up as scale on the floor of the forge.

Then in the case of the Prambanan meteorite there was one hell of a lot of experimentation went on before the smiths worked out how to handle it.

The technology was a side blown charcoal forge, or a ground forge, blown by ububan. Have you ever used one of these? My guess is that perhaps as much as half the attempts to produce usable material failed.

Then there are other factors such as restrictions placed on use, and the number of keris that one person could make in a lifetime.

The technique used in Central Jawa to weld meteoritic material, and other small pieces of pamor material ensures that the meteorite is not able to be identified as a separate entity after the first weld, right from the beginning it is mixed with the iron.

Calculations might be fun, but they bear no relationship to the end product.

I most respectfully suggest that your numbers might be just a little bit optimistic.

Jean · 22nd July 2019, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seerp Visser

Jean/Alan

One cubic meter will have had a weight of about 7,900 kgs.

Seerp,
To complement what Alan said, you have assumed that the specific gravity of the meteorite is 7.9 so equal to the one of pure iron, but it is not the case as the meteorite is only a piece of celestial rock containing few percent of metal oxides or other metallic compounds....

Alan,
Just for curiosity, what is the approximate fraction of the raw meteorite materials which ends-up as usable pamor materials after the final welding?

Regards

David · 23rd July 2019, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

That's cruel David, purely cruel.

This can be downloaded if you are able to push the right buttons:-

"The Magical Life of Things" --- Margaret J. Wiener

It is a nice little addition to furthering an understanding of the keris, nothing new, not an expose of hidden knowledge, just a simple, commonsense commentary.

Pauzan Pusposukadgo used to believe that much of the "mystical/magical" belief surrounding the keris was due to the involvement of the Dutch. I personally think that Dutch influence was only one factor.

The people of Jawa & Bali do understand the world in a way that differs from the way in which people from European based societies understand the world, particularly post-industrial European based cultures.

Not only is understanding different, but the societal system of behaviour is different. Javanese people will normally try to provide an answer to a question that they sense the questioner expects, not necessarily an accurate answer, but one that will please the questioner.

The keris in some circumstance could be considered to be a "magically charged" object, but that "magic" cannot be understood unless one understands the Javanese mode of thought and World View.

Cruel Alan? Really? Honestly i feel you have done me a bit of an injustice here, but perhaps it is my own fault for not being clear enough.
Firstly, my comment had absolutely nothing to do with Javanese (or even general Indonesian) culture, the mystical/magical beliefs surrounding meteoric pamor or whether or not a keris can be a "magically charged" object. While it is true that i mention rupiah you may have noted that i also mention dollars and cents. Perhaps i should have been more of a completist and brought lira, pounds, euro and dinars into the equation. My remark was not intended as an indictment of the Javanese way of things. Rather it was a comment on the Culture of Salesmanship. This culture is universal. It has no national origin. Yes, i am well aware of the Javanese penchant of politeness in their tendency to tell others what they believe the questioner might like to hear, mostly because it is a trait which you have repeatedly posted about on this forum many times. I tend to pay rather close attention to the things you have to say on this forum as well as our private conversations. But while this may be a trait of Javanese culture with the root intention towards polite behavior it is also a main tenet of the culture of the salesman with the intent being to deceive and increase sales potential. It may be that you are too deeply involved in the Javanese keris world to see the pervasiveness of sales techniques from keris sellers around the world. For instance, i realize that you don't spend too much time scanning the keris pages of eBay or other online auction sites. But the use of the lure of meteoric pamor as a means to gain higher prices for keris sold by sellers all around the world is a quite common technique. It is part of the reason that misunderstandings about the legendary meteoric pamor are so hard to kill in the keris marketplace. It isn't being brought up as a polite response to a question where one feels the need to tell the questioner what would most please them. It is being pushed as a selling point. I am not being cruel, i am being straightforward and truthful.
And if anyone would like to read Margret Wiener's "The Magic Life of Things" it can be downloaded here:
https://www.academia.edu/2060088/The...Life_of_Things
As has been probably mentioned numerous times on these pages, i would also recommend her book "Visible and Invisible Realms. Power, Magic, and Colonial Conquest in Bali".

A. G. Maisey · 23rd July 2019, 08:27 PM

Tongue in cheek David, I apologise if you thought for one moment I was inferring that you were a modern day Torquemada.

As for my propensity to repeat myself, well, that is in most cases intentional:- repetition fosters learning, and if it appears to me that things I may have said in the past have been forgotten or ignored, and that people for whom I have great respect have been injured because of this, well, all I can say in my defence is that when the lies and carelessness stops, so will I.

21st July 2019, 08:49 PM	#2
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	I am seriously doubting that meteoric materials was or is added in many kris blades but Alan will probably tell us more about it I own several krisses supposedly containing meteoric materials according to the seller (see pic) but I take it with a pinch of salt... Regards Attached Images

21st July 2019, 11:16 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,730	That's cruel David, purely cruel. This can be downloaded if you are able to push the right buttons:- "The Magical Life of Things" --- Margaret J. Wiener It is a nice little addition to furthering an understanding of the keris, nothing new, not an expose of hidden knowledge, just a simple, commonsense commentary. Pauzan Pusposukadgo used to believe that much of the "mystical/magical" belief surrounding the keris was due to the involvement of the Dutch. I personally think that Dutch influence was only one factor. The people of Jawa & Bali do understand the world in a way that differs from the way in which people from European based societies understand the world, particularly post-industrial European based cultures. Not only is understanding different, but the societal system of behaviour is different. Javanese people will normally try to provide an answer to a question that they sense the questioner expects, not necessarily an accurate answer, but one that will please the questioner. The keris in some circumstance could be considered to be a "magically charged" object, but that "magic" cannot be understood unless one understands the Javanese mode of thought and World View. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 21st July 2019 at 11:36 PM.

22nd July 2019, 03:48 AM	#6
Seerp Visser Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Belgium Posts: 37	Meteorite again Jean/Alan Two major pieces of the Prambanan meteorite were transported into the kraton of Solo. One piece in 1784 and one in 1797 (Meteoorijzer te Soerakarta, Natuurkundig tijdschrift voor Nederlandsch Indie, Vol 29, 1867, page 267). A bigger piece and a smaller. The biggest piece was estimated to have a volume of about one cubic meter. One cubic meter will have had a weight of about 7,900 kgs. In 1867, the smaller piece was consumed. In 1904 (107 years later) An Austrian ethnologist visits the meteorite in the kraton of Solo and gives the dimensions from what is left of the bigger piece. From these measurements a weight can be calculated of about 1,300 kgs. So 6,600 kgs of the bigger piece of meteorite were consumed. Photographs of the meteorite (Indische courant 1939, Frey 1989) show not too much movement of the big piece since 1904. So when we accept what Dr. Groneman writes, that for a Keris about 200 grams of meteoritic iron was used (Nikkelijzer, 1904), then we can make an estimate how many Keris, lances and some other objects (as table knives) were made with meteoritic iron as pamor material. When the meteorite was used for keris only, than, from the bigger piece, about 33,000 Keris were made with meteoritic iron. We dream further. Suppose the smaller piece consumed in 1867 was, originally, one third, in weight, from the bigger piece (so 2,600 kgs). In that case another 13,000 keris were made. Also literature mentions that many, many smaller pieces of the meteorite were found. In 1904 that material was all, or nearly all, consumed according to Dr. Groneman. Suppose all smaller meteoritic material together was the quantity of the smaller piece earlier consumed in Solo. Than another 13,000 keris were made with meteoritic iron. Above numbers total 59,000 keris made with the use of meteoritic iron as pamor material in middle Java. And that in the period between around 1750 and 1904 or about 150 years. Are that many Keris? Are that not many Keris? For middle Java only? I don't know. Suppose Empu's used less meteorite for a Keris or more that should influence the results of course.

21st July 2019, 06:59 PM	#1
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,879	Interesting question! I hope you will get an equally interesting answer!

21st July 2019, 10:17 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,730	Jean, I'm just a wee bit sick & tired of this meteorite thing. Yes, meteoritic material was used in some keris in Central Jawa. It is perhaps reasonable to hypothesise that meteorite was used in a few other keris prior to the Prambanan Fall. But it is not possible to know with any certainty which keris it was used in, unless one actually put it there oneself, or saw meteoritic material, that was known positively to be meteoritic material placed into the forging that was then further processed into a keris. You are absolutely correct Jean:-meteoritic material is not known to have been used in many keris , but in only a very limited number of keris produced in Central Jawa from the end of the 18th century up until the present. Seerp, I have used meteoritic material in blades, I have used it in knife blades, I have consolidated meteoritic material into a small billets that were subsequently used as the contrasting material in several keris. In both the knife blades and the keris blades the quantity of material used was not weighed, this would be without any point at all. The quantity of meteoritic material used was judged by eye, in exactly the same way that other contrasting materials are judged:- sufficient is sufficient, too little is not enough, too much is unnecessary. There are no sets of scales in a forge, but there is a smith, and that smith has the experience necessary to make judgements. I know of no tradition that requires meteoritic material to be placed in any particular place in a blade. Frankly, and taking account of the way in which pamor is made, I can see no way of placing meteoritic material in any particular place, other than by adding it at the end of the forging process as pamor tambal, and that would seem to be counter to the philosophy involved, and most certainly not at all possible using the techniques that were used in Central Jawa to turn meteoritic material into pamor. In respect of what the maker expects from the addition of meteoritic material to a keris, I would most gently suggest that this is the wrong question, and even if the right question were to be asked, I would not be prepared to answer it. What I can do is to say that the reason I added it was because I had been told it could not be done and that meteorite in blades was something that was part legend, part myth, and a tiny part reality. The secret had been lost. This was in the second half of the 1970's. Bill Moran in the USA was making knife blades using meteoritic material. The "Keris Revolution" had not yet started in Jawa, there had been a few little scratchings around the edges but it was to be a few more years before craftsmen were actually producing keris and making a living from this. If Bill Moran could weld meteoritic material, so could I. Now anybody who can make a chocolate cake and who has a gas forge can weld and use meteoritic material. It is just another material. No big deal.

21st July 2019, 10:52 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,042	Thank you Alan. I don't know that i can say what mystic power as Empu expects from more or less meteorite. As Alan points out, that is probably the wrong question really. But i think i can say what a keris dealer might expect and it is measured in rupiah, dollars and cents.

22nd July 2019, 05:40 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,730	Seerp, have you ever worked with meteoritic material? 1Kg put into the first weld does not equal 1Kg after the material has been washed, to wash the material I used, it needed around 10 welds. Most of that meteorite finished up as scale on the floor of the forge. Then in the case of the Prambanan meteorite there was one hell of a lot of experimentation went on before the smiths worked out how to handle it. The technology was a side blown charcoal forge, or a ground forge, blown by ububan. Have you ever used one of these? My guess is that perhaps as much as half the attempts to produce usable material failed. Then there are other factors such as restrictions placed on use, and the number of keris that one person could make in a lifetime. The technique used in Central Jawa to weld meteoritic material, and other small pieces of pamor material ensures that the meteorite is not able to be identified as a separate entity after the first weld, right from the beginning it is mixed with the iron. Calculations might be fun, but they bear no relationship to the end product. I most respectfully suggest that your numbers might be just a little bit optimistic.

23rd July 2019, 08:27 PM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,730	Tongue in cheek David, I apologise if you thought for one moment I was inferring that you were a modern day Torquemada. As for my propensity to repeat myself, well, that is in most cases intentional:- repetition fosters learning, and if it appears to me that things I may have said in the past have been forgotten or ignored, and that people for whom I have great respect have been injured because of this, well, all I can say in my defence is that when the lies and carelessness stops, so will I.