"A Passion for Indian Arms" Book Review

Jens Nordlunde · 6th November 2016, 06:19 PM

One sword was missing in my catalogue, but thanks to the helf of Lee you can find it here http://vikingsword.com/ethsword/No%2051.pdf
Thank you Lee for your help.
Jens

mariusgmioc · 6th November 2016, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

One sword was missing in my catalogue, but thanks to the helf of Lee you can find it here http://vikingsword.com/ethsword/No%2051.pdf
Thank you Lee for your help.
Jens

Another reason for a second edition!

That's a magnificent sword. Thank you Jens for sharing it with us.

But isn't the term "Firangi" refering to an Indian made sword with a European blade?!

Jens Nordlunde · 6th November 2016, 09:05 PM

Hi Marius:-),

Yes it most certainly is, but along the line the name got stuck, even if the blades were of Indian manufacture like this one. If you choose you can also call it something else.
What I would like to point out is, the way the hilt has been decorated. You should be aware of, that many old hilts were redecorated. Thick gold recoration removed, and a koftgari decoration added. Either to get the gold, or due to new fashion. See pp. 77-78 in the catalogue.

Jim McDougall · 6th November 2016, 09:09 PM

Well noted Marius, technically the term 'firangi' is indicative of an other than Indian blade on one of these swords, actually known in Indian dialects as 'khanda' . To carry it further, these type hilts became known as 'Hindu basket hilts' post European contact and evolved presumably influenced by European style from the old and simpler hilt 'khanda'.

The term firangi does typically allude to a European blade, however, in its more broad use as 'foreign' can refer to any blade from foreign source outside India, including Persia, Middle East etc.

The firangi term has become a colloquialism for these swords among collectors in the broader sense as well, beyond these technicalities.

Sorry Jens, we crossed posts, just saw yours

and I had not thought of the decoration inclusion as well.

mariusgmioc · 7th November 2016, 09:57 AM

Thank you Jens and Jim for your explanations!

Well, in the absence of a more accurate term, I can see the logic behind the generalisation of the Firangi term for all swords, with foreign blade or not, displaying a certain shape and characteristics. Yes, maybe the sword can also be called a Khanda, but then the term "Khanda" has become associated with the broader blades with rounded or obtuse angled tip which are iconic for the Sikh... if I am correct.

As with regards of the more recent decoration, I noticed this on many Indian blades. This practice is continued even today and quite often one can find 17 or early 18 century wootz pieces with perfectly intact koftgari decoration, that was added much more recently to increase their appeal.

However, as long as the koftgari is of quality and well executed, I consider this to be a genuine enhancement to the blade since it is part of its cultural heritage and it was traditionally practiced in the past as it is practiced now.

Jens Nordlunde · 7th November 2016, 02:43 PM

Marius,
In most cases all of the old decoration has been removed, and a new decoration added. You will then have to judge how old the weapon is, and if the decoration is of the same age.
There are, however, cases where rests of the old decoration is still intact in small parts, and here it is easy to see that a new decoratin has been added - see catalogue pp. 77-78.

mariusgmioc · 8th November 2016, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Marius,
In most cases all of the old decoration has been removed, and a new decoration added. You will then have to judge how old the weapon is, and if the decoration is of the same age.
There are, however, cases where rests of the old decoration is still intact in small parts, and here it is easy to see that a new decoratin has been added - see catalogue pp. 77-78.

I also have a couple of pieces in this cathegory (with remade/latter addes koftgari). Hope to aquire a few more!

Jens Nordlunde · 8th November 2016, 09:41 PM

I wrote, 'in most cases...', and should have written, 'in many cases...' - sorry.

Maurius I do hope you will get many Indian weapons, buth with original decorations, and with newer ones. Let me also add, that I also hope that you will research them, to find out more about their age and their origin.
Researching can often be hard work, but when you find something, the sun starts shining.

Likhari · 20th December 2017, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

One sword was missing in my catalogue, but thanks to the helf of Lee you can find it here http://vikingsword.com/ethsword/No%2051.pdf
Thank you Lee for your help.
Jens

Jens where did you get the notion that those brass filled holes have talismanic significance ?

This is obviously a reused Patissa blade and those holes would house rivets to hold the blade and hilt together as in the following example:

Jens Nordlunde · 21st December 2017, 09:20 PM

The sword shown is not a pattisa blade, or it would have been changed quite a lot.
It is generally accepted that these brass/gold filled holes are of talismanic significance.
One other thing, which I can mention is, that these filled 'holes' are far bigger than the holes for rivets.
You may have a theory about these holes, but I stick to what I have written.

Likhari · 22nd December 2017, 12:38 AM

Thanks for the response Jens.

Could you kindly provide a reference that supports your statement. I have several blades with similar brass or silver filled holes and would be interested in learning more about an alternative view on why they exist.

Jens Nordlunde · 22nd December 2017, 04:21 PM

I am sorry but I dont have the time to find quotes on this subject. So I am afraid you will have to find them yourself, which should not be too difficult.
Have a nice Christmas.

Likhari · 23rd December 2017, 08:58 AM

Even if you had the time Jens I very much doubt that you would have been able to find any reference to support your statement - for the simple reason that none exist.

Drilled holes in Indian blades are not uncommon. When present in groups of three arranged in triangles they might represent a trademark of a manufacturing principality like Sirohi or we can speculate that they might be symbolic representation of the Indian Trinity (Trimurti) in the shape of Brahma (Creator),
Vishnu (Preserver), and Shiva (Destroyer).

When drilled holes are present along the midline of the blade as in your example they are merely the sign of a reused blade. The holes being used to rivet the brace of the original hilt and later filled with metal for aesthetic reasons when a new hilt and a different brace were added.

I wish you a Merry Christmas as well !

Mercenary · 23rd December 2017, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Likhari

we can speculate that they might be symbolic representation of the Indian Trinity (Trimurti) in the shape of Brahma (Creator),
Vishnu (Preserver), and Shiva (Destroyer)

Let me step into such an interesting discussion. I have a question. Are there some images of Trimurti in the form of three circles somewhere in the Indian art tradition? I have never met them yet

7th November 2016, 09:57 AM	#5
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,882	Thank you Jens and Jim for your explanations! Well, in the absence of a more accurate term, I can see the logic behind the generalisation of the Firangi term for all swords, with foreign blade or not, displaying a certain shape and characteristics. Yes, maybe the sword can also be called a Khanda, but then the term "Khanda" has become associated with the broader blades with rounded or obtuse angled tip which are iconic for the Sikh... if I am correct. As with regards of the more recent decoration, I noticed this on many Indian blades. This practice is continued even today and quite often one can find 17 or early 18 century wootz pieces with perfectly intact koftgari decoration, that was added much more recently to increase their appeal. However, as long as the koftgari is of quality and well executed, I consider this to be a genuine enhancement to the blade since it is part of its cultural heritage and it was traditionally practiced in the past as it is practiced now. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 7th November 2016 at 10:13 AM.

22nd December 2017, 12:38 AM	#11
Likhari Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: USA Posts: 34	Thanks for the response Jens. Could you kindly provide a reference that supports your statement. I have several blades with similar brass or silver filled holes and would be interested in learning more about an alternative view on why they exist. Attached Images

6th November 2016, 06:19 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	One sword was missing in my catalogue, but thanks to the helf of Lee you can find it here http://vikingsword.com/ethsword/No%2051.pdf Thank you Lee for your help. Jens

6th November 2016, 09:05 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Hi Marius:-), Yes it most certainly is, but along the line the name got stuck, even if the blades were of Indian manufacture like this one. If you choose you can also call it something else. What I would like to point out is, the way the hilt has been decorated. You should be aware of, that many old hilts were redecorated. Thick gold recoration removed, and a koftgari decoration added. Either to get the gold, or due to new fashion. See pp. 77-78 in the catalogue.

6th November 2016, 09:09 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Well noted Marius, technically the term 'firangi' is indicative of an other than Indian blade on one of these swords, actually known in Indian dialects as 'khanda' . To carry it further, these type hilts became known as 'Hindu basket hilts' post European contact and evolved presumably influenced by European style from the old and simpler hilt 'khanda'. The term firangi does typically allude to a European blade, however, in its more broad use as 'foreign' can refer to any blade from foreign source outside India, including Persia, Middle East etc. The firangi term has become a colloquialism for these swords among collectors in the broader sense as well, beyond these technicalities. Sorry Jens, we crossed posts, just saw yours and I had not thought of the decoration inclusion as well.

7th November 2016, 02:43 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Marius, In most cases all of the old decoration has been removed, and a new decoration added. You will then have to judge how old the weapon is, and if the decoration is of the same age. There are, however, cases where rests of the old decoration is still intact in small parts, and here it is easy to see that a new decoratin has been added - see catalogue pp. 77-78.

8th November 2016, 09:41 PM	#8
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	I wrote, 'in most cases...', and should have written, 'in many cases...' - sorry. Maurius I do hope you will get many Indian weapons, buth with original decorations, and with newer ones. Let me also add, that I also hope that you will research them, to find out more about their age and their origin. Researching can often be hard work, but when you find something, the sun starts shining.

21st December 2017, 09:20 PM	#10
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	The sword shown is not a pattisa blade, or it would have been changed quite a lot. It is generally accepted that these brass/gold filled holes are of talismanic significance. One other thing, which I can mention is, that these filled 'holes' are far bigger than the holes for rivets. You may have a theory about these holes, but I stick to what I have written.

22nd December 2017, 04:21 PM	#12
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	I am sorry but I dont have the time to find quotes on this subject. So I am afraid you will have to find them yourself, which should not be too difficult. Have a nice Christmas.

23rd December 2017, 08:58 AM	#13
Likhari Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: USA Posts: 34	Even if you had the time Jens I very much doubt that you would have been able to find any reference to support your statement - for the simple reason that none exist. Drilled holes in Indian blades are not uncommon. When present in groups of three arranged in triangles they might represent a trademark of a manufacturing principality like Sirohi or we can speculate that they might be symbolic representation of the Indian Trinity (Trimurti) in the shape of Brahma (Creator), Vishnu (Preserver), and Shiva (Destroyer). When drilled holes are present along the midline of the blade as in your example they are merely the sign of a reused blade. The holes being used to rivet the brace of the original hilt and later filled with metal for aesthetic reasons when a new hilt and a different brace were added. I wish you a Merry Christmas as well !