Need help on German blade inscription

fernando · 4th January 2013, 01:29 PM

This is a Portuguese regulation sword for infantry/artillery officer mod. 1806.
I assume the blade is German (18th century)as it has IN SOLINGEN in one of its sides.
What troubles me is the inscription in the other side. The person who offered it for trade says the letters are very clear but he can't discern what they are or mean:
CHAN . ?? S PL ? V G ? L
Apparently the P is tangled to the L and also there is a half (?) O tangled to a C.
Can any of you guys figure out what this inscription is about?
A word starting by CHAN doesn't appear in the German dictionary

. Maybe the guy is not reading well or this is not German

.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 12th January 2013, 04:35 PM

[QUOTE=fernando]This is a Portuguese regulation sword for infantry/artillery officer mod. 1806.
I assume the blade is German (18th century)as it has IN SOLINGEN in one of its sides.
What troubles me is the inscription in the other side. The person who offered it for trade says the letters are very clear but he can't discern what they are or mean:
CHAN . ?? S PL ? V G ? L
Apparently the P is tangled to the L and also there is a half (?) O tangled to a C.
Can any of you guys figure out what this inscription is about?
A word starting by CHAN doesn't appear in the German dictionary

. Maybe the guy is not reading well or this is not German

Salaams fernando, PL ? V G ? L ...I think this could stand for PORTUGAL but without a picture of the actual letters its a bit difficult ~ any chance to see a photo of the actual full inscription?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

fernando · 13th January 2013, 05:00 PM

Olá Ibrahiim,
What a coincidence !
I arrived last knight from Lisbon, where i went to swap some pieces with the owner of this sword. When i opened my laptop and read your post, i was precisely realizing that the last word in the inscription might be a terribly stylised misspelled PORTUGAL. This because whilst struggling to take close up pictures of the blade, i kept wondering what the lettering would mean. Not that the pictures help so much as, due to bad conditions, i have done a lousy work.
Whether the whole inscription is in portuguese is something i can not yet figure out; still the three letters CHAN fit better into such language.

.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 13th January 2013, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Olá Ibrahiim,
What a coincidence !
I arrived last knight from Lisbon, where i went to swap some pieces with the owner of this sword. When i opened my laptop and read your post, i was precisely realizing that the last word in the inscription might be a terribly stylised misspelled PORTUGAL. This because whilst struggling to take close up pictures of the blade, i kept wondering what the lettering would mean. Not that the pictures help so much as, due to bad conditions, i have done a lousy work.
Whether the whole inscription is in portuguese is something i can not yet figure out; still the three letters CHAN fit better into such language.

.

Salaams fernando ~ I agree on the PORTUGAL part but CHAN has me puzzled !
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

junker · 14th January 2013, 04:01 PM

Hi,
i`m from germany and i ve no idea.
I thougt of the french word "chevalleger" which is often used in Germany for the light horses regiments.

Dirk

fernando · 14th January 2013, 04:11 PM

Thank you so much for the suggestion Dirk, but the Cheval-Leger version doesn't fit in it.
Besides, that would imply in a Cavalry blade, which is not the case of this narrow small sword example.

fernando · 3rd February 2013, 12:15 PM

I have just acquired this sword.
Within soon i will be in a condition to (try and) take better pictures of the enigmatic inscription.

fernando · 11th February 2013, 03:24 PM

Surely a word started by CHAN didn't make much sense.
Only that the C turned out to be a O and there was another letter before that ... although almost completely faded.
But common sense and a little reasoning made me figure out that this is the name of King Dom João in period German lettering; IOHANES.
On the other side of the blade, also the I for Ihn Solingen is completely faded but, the (only) partialy faded H helped me discern the right phrase.
My only problem is that we had two Kings with the same name within a period close enough to put the doubt on which it was. Although Dom João VI was firstly Regent (his Queen mother was mentally ill) and later King between 1799 and 1826, the period covering this sword model, i am more inclined for prior King Dom João V, who reigned between 1706-1750. As we may see documented, Military Officers, having to purchase the swords by themselves, often used their ancestors blades, both for economical as for sentimental reasons. It is therefore my conviction that this is a XVIII century blade ... until further notice

.

cornelistromp · 11th February 2013, 06:11 PM

Hi Fernando,

it is a smallsword with a shortened rapier blade from the second half of the 17th century, which is used again 100 years later.
there is not Iohanes Portugal engraved (this makes no sense

) but Iohanes Beugel a famous swordsmith from solingen in the second half of the 17thC. his mastermark was a Moors head.

best,
jasper

Pukka Bundook · 11th February 2013, 06:36 PM

Well Jasper,

You soon sorted this one out!!

Best wishes,
Richard.

Jim McDougall · 11th February 2013, 08:00 PM

Excellently reasoned Nando! and I have always admired your tenacity at working to solve these kinds of conundrums, and while not ultimately the final solution, it was beautifully thought out. The main thing is that your reassessment of the letters provided the impetus for Jaspers solution regarding the Solingen maker noted.
I must admit that I pored over this inscription many times, but could not offer a single viable suggestion. What is most interesting is the unusual character of some of these early letters.

fernando · 11th February 2013, 08:26 PM

Well Jasper, i bow to your expertize and turn the back to my silly presumption

.
Since the begining of the thread that i assumed the second word would be Portugal and only the first word was the nut to crack.
So right was author José A. Faria e Silva that, when mentioning that earlier blades were used by Officers to mount on their Regulation swords, stated that they used to reach out for either XVII century blades shortened for the purpose, or XVIII examples that were a little shorter than the Regulation.
Dank u wel, Jasper

cornelistromp · 11th February 2013, 09:29 PM

Hi Fernando,

no it has nothing to do with expertise, I am habituated to old script in sword Fullers and my language and Dutch names are like German names.
see for example the e in Clemens meigen (picture), the 17th century E resembles a kind of character that looks like EC combination.

I apologize that I have not previously earlier responded to the script in your sword

VBW
Jasper

fernando · 14th February 2013, 12:10 PM

I thought i should attach a new image of the blade with the correct inscription.
Also a couple other pictures of the screwable pommel button and the scabbard straight ending point, details that are typically seen in Portuguese swords.

.

4th January 2013, 01:29 PM	#1
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Need help on German blade inscription This is a Portuguese regulation sword for infantry/artillery officer mod. 1806. I assume the blade is German (18th century)as it has IN SOLINGEN in one of its sides. What troubles me is the inscription in the other side. The person who offered it for trade says the letters are very clear but he can't discern what they are or mean: CHAN . ?? S PL ? V G ? L Apparently the P is tangled to the L and also there is a half (?) O tangled to a C. Can any of you guys figure out what this inscription is about? A word starting by CHAN doesn't appear in the German dictionary . Maybe the guy is not reading well or this is not German . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 5th January 2013 at 02:57 PM.

13th January 2013, 05:00 PM	#3
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Olá Ibrahiim, What a coincidence ! I arrived last knight from Lisbon, where i went to swap some pieces with the owner of this sword. When i opened my laptop and read your post, i was precisely realizing that the last word in the inscription might be a terribly stylised misspelled PORTUGAL. This because whilst struggling to take close up pictures of the blade, i kept wondering what the lettering would mean. Not that the pictures help so much as, due to bad conditions, i have done a lousy work. Whether the whole inscription is in portuguese is something i can not yet figure out; still the three letters CHAN fit better into such language. . Attached Images

11th February 2013, 03:24 PM	#8
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	SOLVED Surely a word started by CHAN didn't make much sense. Only that the C turned out to be a O and there was another letter before that ... although almost completely faded. But common sense and a little reasoning made me figure out that this is the name of King Dom João in period German lettering; IOHANES. On the other side of the blade, also the I for Ihn Solingen is completely faded but, the (only) partialy faded H helped me discern the right phrase. My only problem is that we had two Kings with the same name within a period close enough to put the doubt on which it was. Although Dom João VI was firstly Regent (his Queen mother was mentally ill) and later King between 1799 and 1826, the period covering this sword model, i am more inclined for prior King Dom João V, who reigned between 1706-1750. As we may see documented, Military Officers, having to purchase the swords by themselves, often used their ancestors blades, both for economical as for sentimental reasons. It is therefore my conviction that this is a XVIII century blade ... until further notice . Attached Images

11th February 2013, 08:26 PM	#12
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Shame Well Jasper, i bow to your expertize and turn the back to my silly presumption . Since the begining of the thread that i assumed the second word would be Portugal and only the first word was the nut to crack. So right was author José A. Faria e Silva that, when mentioning that earlier blades were used by Officers to mount on their Regulation swords, stated that they used to reach out for either XVII century blades shortened for the purpose, or XVIII examples that were a little shorter than the Regulation. Dank u wel, Jasper

11th February 2013, 09:29 PM	#13
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,057	Hi Fernando, no it has nothing to do with expertise, I am habituated to old script in sword Fullers and my language and Dutch names are like German names. see for example the e in Clemens meigen (picture), the 17th century E resembles a kind of character that looks like EC combination. I apologize that I have not previously earlier responded to the script in your sword VBW Jasper Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 11th February 2013 at 09:40 PM.

12th January 2013, 04:35 PM	#2
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	[QUOTE=fernando]This is a Portuguese regulation sword for infantry/artillery officer mod. 1806. I assume the blade is German (18th century)as it has IN SOLINGEN in one of its sides. What troubles me is the inscription in the other side. The person who offered it for trade says the letters are very clear but he can't discern what they are or mean: CHAN . ?? S PL ? V G ? L Apparently the P is tangled to the L and also there is a half (?) O tangled to a C. Can any of you guys figure out what this inscription is about? A word starting by CHAN doesn't appear in the German dictionary . Maybe the guy is not reading well or this is not German Salaams fernando, PL ? V G ? L ...I think this could stand for PORTUGAL but without a picture of the actual letters its a bit difficult ~ any chance to see a photo of the actual full inscription? Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

14th January 2013, 04:01 PM	#5
junker Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 140	Hi, i`m from germany and i ve no idea. I thougt of the french word "chevalleger" which is often used in Germany for the light horses regiments. Dirk

14th January 2013, 04:11 PM	#6
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Thank you so much for the suggestion Dirk, but the Cheval-Leger version doesn't fit in it. Besides, that would imply in a Cavalry blade, which is not the case of this narrow small sword example.

3rd February 2013, 12:15 PM	#7
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	I have just acquired this sword. Within soon i will be in a condition to (try and) take better pictures of the enigmatic inscription.

11th February 2013, 06:11 PM	#9
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,057	Hi Fernando, it is a smallsword with a shortened rapier blade from the second half of the 17th century, which is used again 100 years later. there is not Iohanes Portugal engraved (this makes no sense ) but Iohanes Beugel a famous swordsmith from solingen in the second half of the 17thC. his mastermark was a Moors head. best, jasper

11th February 2013, 06:36 PM	#10
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Well Jasper, You soon sorted this one out!! Best wishes, Richard.

11th February 2013, 08:00 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,753	Excellently reasoned Nando! and I have always admired your tenacity at working to solve these kinds of conundrums, and while not ultimately the final solution, it was beautifully thought out. The main thing is that your reassessment of the letters provided the impetus for Jaspers solution regarding the Solingen maker noted. I must admit that I pored over this inscription many times, but could not offer a single viable suggestion. What is most interesting is the unusual character of some of these early letters.

14th February 2013, 12:10 PM	#14
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	I thought i should attach a new image of the blade with the correct inscription. Also a couple other pictures of the screwable pommel button and the scabbard straight ending point, details that are typically seen in Portuguese swords. . Attached Images