true or false: most viking blades where frankish

[chevalier]

id always thought viking swords had been locally forged until recently when i read somewhere that most norse/danish/swedish viking blades where actually frankish in origin.


is this true?

[celtan]

I don't know about that, but I know they made swords in Galicia, which they called Jakobsland, with iron from the local mines...
Regards
M

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by chevalier

id always thought viking swords had been locally forged until recently when i read somewhere that most norse/danish/swedish viking blades where actually frankish in origin.


is this true?

You really are quite a professor Chevalier!! At first glance the question seems simplistic, but 'doing the homework' on this was not only intriguing but there are of course certain complexities. Like most broad questions, I think the best answer is...primarily sword blades in the Viking Age (c.750-1100 AD) were products of various smiths in the Rhine regions (where the huge swordblade machine of Solingen evolved), thus the lands of the Franks.

There is considerable focus on the 'names' or possibly trademarks found on many of the blades, prevalent as 'ULFBERHT' and 'INGELRI'. That these appeared in such variation in spelling and application, and over such an extended period, suggests that while these might have been names, the continued use of these may have been much in the sense of using well established names as quality indicators.

It seems that as has typically been the case, hilting was often done locally, and using imported blades from Frankish smiths. In the deep ancestry of commercialism, the practice of inlaying inscriptions of names and varied wording and symbols became common during Charlemagne's time. That there was considerable export of these blades is evident when Carolingian rulers did attempt to forbid supplying thier present or potential enemies with these highly sought products.

The fact that these blades are found in such wide scope geographically is simply that they were indeed exported to Viking armourers, who hilted them in the fashion of the region or time. In addition, the Vikings who carried them of course took them to many areas in thier well known activities. I think the single exception I can think of might be in the case of Norway, and possibly others, where smaller edged weapons were indeed made locally, and as in the case of the sax or scramasax where these gradually evolved into sword length single edge blades.

As Manuel has noted, there was blade making industry in the Celtiberean regions, which did evolve into production of the magnificent blades of Toledo and of other Spanish centers, but these blades are not normally associated with known Viking swords as far as I know. I believe however, that the metal forging secrets of the Moors were in degree carried into the Frankish regions from these centers, and wonder if this may have supplanted the pattern welded blades with the strong forged steel of these regions in about the 9th century.

I think it is interesting that the history of these early weapons reveals in so many ways the perspective that the fundamentals of those times are actually so simillar to present times.

All best regards,
Jim

[celtan]

Howdy Jim et Chevaliere,

I understand the Arabs were able to develop such nice blades in Spain because they took advantage ot the renowned and world acclaimed metallurgical arts that had been developed by Celts and Iberians.

Remember how the romans adopted the celtic spata and turned it into their gladivs hispaniensis?. Also the spanish falcata, a local version of the greek kopis used in both the carthaginian and greek colonies in Spain, was the terror of the legionaries. In fact, spanish mercenaries serving in the roman armies kept on using them when they were taken to conquer England.

The arabs were great at developing and adapting for their own use the ideas and techniques they found in their road to conquest, but not terribly original otherwise.

Regards

M

[chevalier]

i was about to say the same thing celtan just said. the arabs where known to have highly desired frankish swords above their own weapons (the only reason i can guess for this was that the frankish weapons where of better quality) and i think that is wy the carolingians forbade their export (at least to their biggest enemy, the abbasid/omyyad caliphates)

[chevalier]

i also seem to remember one or mulitple popes issueing edicts during that time that european swordsmiths where, on pain of death, not to "ply their wares among the muslims" or something to that effect.


also a few popes issued edicts against the sale of timber to the aghlabids in sicily and north africa, as the muslims had exhausted their usable supply of timber in both north africa and sicily by the 10th century and where buying wood from europe to build their fleets. of course the pope's edicts where openly flaunted by the venetians, who got a continuous supply of timber from croatia and slovenia and continued to sell to the muslims.

[celtan]

Not to be coy, diverse european christian nations allied themselves to the muslims at one time or another according to their interests at the time. British sappers assisted their moroccan allies to blow up the walls of spanish fortifications in 16th C. North Africa, and all british prisoners captured were invariably put to the sword. Even the French allied themselves with the Turks against the Hapsburgs.

One of the greatest worries of the Catholic Powers was that the Genoese and Venetians would actually prefer to join the Ottomans at Lepanto, and their tactics included the possibility of such happening, thus the overwhelming amount of veteran Tercios soldiers inside the Genoese and Venetian ships.

Heck, even within Spain and during the Reconquista Crusade, Christian lords would ally themselves with the local muslims againsta a common christian enemy and viceversa. Just read the Mio Cid ("My Lord")...

During the Spanish American War, while both sides were rattling their sabers and trying to blow each other to smithreens, Madrid and New York continued their trading and dealing as usual.

In Nam', often the SV officers sold their American-supplied weaponry to the VC, to be used against their own forces subsequently...

"Cosas veredes, Sancho" / "Such sights you will see, Sancho"
Don Quixote

Well, let's go back to issues germane...

: )



[chevalier]

...also a few popes issued edicts against the sale of timber to the aghlabids in sicily and north africa, as the muslims had exhausted their usable supply of timber in both north africa and sicily by the 10th century and where buying wood from europe to build their fleets. of course the pope's edicts where openly flaunted by the venetians, who got a continuous supply of timber from croatia and slovenia and continued to sell to the muslims.