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Old 29th August 2020, 10:58 AM   #1
francantolin
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Default Old mamluk style hilt and mounts

Hello everybody,

I wanted to show you my last collection item,

I think an old silver european sword hilt and mounts in oriental-mamluk style ( big oxydation, first looked like bronze ).
( sadly the point/end piece of the scabbard mount is missing )

I think it comes from eastern Europa or Austria

I have two questions maybe you can answer:

first about decorations:

Does anybody know what represent the eagle/griffin's head on the hilt ,
the scorpions(?) or blossom-flowers on the mounts
and especially the face on the guard ?

The second more structural for a weapon:

Does anybody know how they fixed the blade in ?
With resin-lead or other stuff like they made for talwar per example ?
Or was it just made for gala-representation and not fixed at all ?

If fixed like on tulwars, how could they remove it without heating damage ??

Kind regards
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Old 29th August 2020, 11:01 AM   #2
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Then I cleaned it ( not to much)...

What do you think ?

Kind regards
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Old 29th August 2020, 11:51 AM   #3
Peter Andeweg
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An interesting set. Looking at the ends of the quillons, I believe it could be French, influenced by the Egyptian campaign of Napoleon. The hilt resembles more to a camel then an eagle or phoenix to me. Parts like these were likely mounted on a presentation saber. The human face on the guard looks mythical, Ancient Greek origin perhaps, a popular fashion during the empire period.
An interesting set!

Peter
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Old 29th August 2020, 02:25 PM   #4
Victrix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Andeweg
An interesting set. Looking at the ends of the quillons, I believe it could be French, influenced by the Egyptian campaign of Napoleon. The hilt resembles more to a camel then an eagle or phoenix to me. Parts like these were likely mounted on a presentation saber. The human face on the guard looks mythical, Ancient Greek origin perhaps, a popular fashion during the empire period.
An interesting set!

Peter


Agree. Eagles donít have ears. Looks more like a camel or llama? Something with fur. A small chain was attached from its mouth to the guard.
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Old 29th August 2020, 03:24 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by francantolin
...
Does anybody know how they fixed the blade in ?
With resin-lead or other stuff like they made for talwar per example ?
Or was it just made for gala-representation and not fixed at all ?

If fixed like on tulwars, how could they remove it without heating damage ??

Kind regards


I recently wanted to reset a curved short sword with a red bronze rams head hilt that was a tad crooked, I put the hilt in a plastic bag and submerged the bagged hilt in boiling water. on heating the hilt got loose quickly and came off easily. The 'glue' appeared to be a tree resin beeswax mix along with some fibrous material (dry horse dung?) and some brick dust. It smelled. To fill the void better I added a bit of brick dust I reset the hilt and held it in place with the grip vertical and the blade held in alignment above it - with a bit of bodging - until it cooled. Took a fair while too. The blades have been cleaned and polished since. How they survive being stuck together during Indian summers I do not know.

see also http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...lwar+hilt+resin

p.s.- yours could also be a horse head, looks like a hint of a bridle. At first I thought it could be a lion's head. It;s a bit like this Brit band sword hilt I found googling.
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Old 29th August 2020, 09:07 PM   #6
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Hello,

Really Thank you all for your comments !


Thank's a lot Kronckew for the details about make/remove a sword hilt !!!

For the model, I thought too when I bought it that it was a french model inspired by the Egyptian campaign of Napoleon but I found two stamps and they are Austrian Silver Hallmarks ( 13 lot ) ( Really not easy to do a good picture of it !! )

that's why my ''eared'' eagle or camel turned to the idea of a griffin sometimes seen on Habsbourg family coat of arms and Vienna's statues

For the stamps, What is interesting is the date,
really old and well preserved item: 180(5?) if I'm right
( the last number is difficult to read ).

if 1805 it coincides with the Austerlitz battle between Napoleon and the Russian and Austrian empire ( a full circle )
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Old 29th August 2020, 09:30 PM   #7
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Hi fran,

Excellent detective work on your part. The date looks to be 1805 to me too. This may be of interest in the European forum too, so I'll copy your thread over there to see if we get more comments. You'll need to check both forums for responses as the comments in each do not carry over to the other forum.

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Old 29th August 2020, 10:22 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Victrix
Agree. Eagles donít have ears.


Yes, at least not external ones like beagles do. I'm sure these birds are capable of hearing, though.
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Old 30th August 2020, 08:54 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip
Yes, at least not external ones like beagles do. I'm sure these birds are capable of hearing, though.


Sure, they have ears holes like us and the one through his mouth !
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Old 30th August 2020, 09:27 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip
Yes, at least not external ones like beagles do. I'm sure these birds are capable of hearing, though.


I think you know what I mean. Sure eagles have hearing organs which are not clearly visible on the outside.

If the creature was a griffin it would have an eagleís beak but it looks more like a muzzle to me.
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Old 30th August 2020, 05:54 PM   #11
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Hello Victrix,

Not a perfect griffin but not a muzzle.
A bird, maybe more a vulture beak shape...

Does anybody know if the decorations on the scabbard mounts represent something special ?

Kind regards
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Old 30th August 2020, 09:32 PM   #12
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The Hungarians have a mythical bird called Turul which is a falcon/hawk. https://szerveto.com/szer-veto/symb...-mythical-turul
The pommel could represent its head and its body could be represented folklore style on the scabbard. The items might then have been part of a 19thC Hungarian cultural or magnateís sabre? Hungary was part of the Roman province of Pannonia and Hungarians like to include Roman symbolism.

Last edited by Victrix : 30th August 2020 at 09:46 PM.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 05:12 PM   #13
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Hi all, the mounts appear to be Austro-Hungarian in origin for a so called "Magnent's" sword. I think it is a version of court sword for minor nobles. They appear in a multitude of shapes and sizes, the only limit being how much you wanted to spend. Here's mine, a lovely sword, Austro-Hungarian mounts in silver with a French (probably) blade.

The markings are a silver assay mark for Vienna and maker's mark. My sword dates to 1840 but I've not been able to identify the maker. The hilt, quillon, and all the scabbard mounts all have the same markings.

Regards,

Greg
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Old 3rd September 2020, 12:10 PM   #14
francantolin
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Hello,

Thank you Victrix and Sabertasche for your comments !

Really lovely nice silver hilt ( with turquoise stones ? )
Is it ''goldened'' silver ? what it seems on the picture.

1840 seems right with the shape of the mark ( cf Austrian hallmark book stamps )

In mine, I found amazing the skill of the goldsmith especially on the guard's face !
Sure, I don't think it was made for everybody.
What could be the price ? What is the right price now ?

I have an hussar blade without hilt and a shamshir blade,
I hesitate to assemble it together ?

The hussar model will be ok with the austrian/hungarian origin

The shamshir for the oriental period after Napoleon Egyptian campaign fashion...
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Old 3rd September 2020, 05:33 PM   #15
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Hi Francantolin, I feel bad as my sword was one of the first blades I posted when I joined this Forum! Since then I've gently cleaned it and reassembled the scabbard but that's it. I should have been farther along in its resurrection!. Stylistically, my sword is silver gilt with turquoise and white enamel. Apparently, this was a common decorative combination post Napoleon.

If you are adding a spare blade to your hilt the good news is that these swords had all manner of blades mounted. Mine is a lightweight blade but some have battle weight blades mounted. If you search "Hungarian Magnet sword" you will see the many, many varieties of this type.

Cheers,

Greg
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