Kris - Sulu, Maguindanao, or...?

Ian · 2nd October 2020, 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

I guess there are a number of Datu Piang kris around. I have 2 for example. Ian's your's is the third. ...

Hi Jose,

Yep, Datu Piang was a well known figure who had a lot of non-violent contact with the U.S. Army in Mindanao, and we have talked about him before. I posted this kris on the old forum, but that post is now gone. I bought it at auction from the estate of Dr. Christensen's daughter. The good doctor served in the Philippines during the first decade of the 20th C, and IIRC he was in southern Mindanao at the old Spanish fort of Reina Regente in South Cotobata during 1901-1903. Datu Piang had his compound nearby, and I suspect that it was during this period that he presented the sword to Dr. Christensen.

This sword was included in the Museum of Macau's "History of Steel" exhibition.

Battara · 2nd October 2020, 01:20 AM

Ah................I acquired mine after the exhibition.

Gustav · 2nd October 2020, 10:31 AM

Ian,

actually my blade also has this angle (called Condong Leleh on Javanese Keris), and a Maguindanao blade I have has almost exactly or exactly the same angle.

It may be true on 20th cent. blades. I don't know, how far esthetical considerations are involved making Moro Kris, but on Javanese Keris you will never find a high quality blade with hilt in line with blade. It would be called Kaku - stiff.

Gustav · 2nd October 2020, 10:53 AM

While searching, I did find an interesting thread.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=sulu+kris

Both blades presented here have roughly the same style of Greneng as mine. The Gangya of original blade (Maguindanao with Sulu style hilt) of that thread has a similar strong bend like mine, while the CCUAL's blade (Sulu) has a similar "elephants trunk" area.
The hilt-blade angle of the first blade (Maguindanao) seems to be quite small and similar to mine.

xasterix · 2nd October 2020, 12:23 PM

Hi Gustav. The engraving on your blade reminds me of one of mine. I haven't ascertained from which Bangsamoro group my blade belongs to.

I reset this blade and retrofit a temporary asang-asang. Sharp blade length is just short at 18 inches.

Ian · 2nd October 2020, 01:53 PM

Hi Gustav,

The geometry of these blades is hard to eyeball I think, and different camera angles can be tricky. It's also difficult to determine the medial line for a blade that has waves. That's why I draw the lines and see how they fit.

I did this with your example (attached), and I can see only a very small angle of deviation of the medial line of the blade and the corresponding line of the hilt (which I have not drawn but I think it is fairly obvious that there is little deviation). Perhaps I should amend my earlier statement and say that the orientation of Sulu blades deviate less from the medial longitudinal line of the hilt than Mindanao blades.

It seems there is room for study of this feature with measurement of the angle of deviation using pictures shot from directly above the sword. Comparison of clearly Maranao, Maguindanao and Sulu pieces should provide the answer.

Ian

P.S. Thank you for the terminology as it applies to keris in regard to this feature.

.

Gustav · 2nd October 2020, 02:17 PM

Ian, thank you.

I wasn't accurate enough while taking the first pictures - they aren't taken from exactly abowe the Kris, and Kris itself doesn't lay perfectly parallely to the ground.

Here is a comparison with a Maguindanao piece.

I suppose, generally we possibly would find out that later Kris tend to be "stiffer" in all regions.

2nd October 2020, 10:31 AM	#3
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,295	Ian, actually my blade also has this angle (called Condong Leleh on Javanese Keris), and a Maguindanao blade I have has almost exactly or exactly the same angle. It may be true on 20th cent. blades. I don't know, how far esthetical considerations are involved making Moro Kris, but on Javanese Keris you will never find a high quality blade with hilt in line with blade. It would be called Kaku - stiff. Attached Images

2nd October 2020, 10:53 AM	#4
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,295	While searching, I did find an interesting thread. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=sulu+kris Both blades presented here have roughly the same style of Greneng as mine. The Gangya of original blade (Maguindanao with Sulu style hilt) of that thread has a similar strong bend like mine, while the CCUAL's blade (Sulu) has a similar "elephants trunk" area. The hilt-blade angle of the first blade (Maguindanao) seems to be quite small and similar to mine. Attached Images

2nd October 2020, 12:23 PM	#5
xasterix Member Join Date: Oct 2018 Posts: 678	Hi Gustav. The engraving on your blade reminds me of one of mine. I haven't ascertained from which Bangsamoro group my blade belongs to. I reset this blade and retrofit a temporary asang-asang. Sharp blade length is just short at 18 inches. Attached Images

2nd October 2020, 01:53 PM	#6
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,430	Hi Gustav, The geometry of these blades is hard to eyeball I think, and different camera angles can be tricky. It's also difficult to determine the medial line for a blade that has waves. That's why I draw the lines and see how they fit. I did this with your example (attached), and I can see only a very small angle of deviation of the medial line of the blade and the corresponding line of the hilt (which I have not drawn but I think it is fairly obvious that there is little deviation). Perhaps I should amend my earlier statement and say that the orientation of Sulu blades deviate less from the medial longitudinal line of the hilt than Mindanao blades. It seems there is room for study of this feature with measurement of the angle of deviation using pictures shot from directly above the sword. Comparison of clearly Maranao, Maguindanao and Sulu pieces should provide the answer. Ian P.S. Thank you for the terminology as it applies to keris in regard to this feature. . Attached Images

2nd October 2020, 02:17 PM	#7
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,295	Ian, thank you. I wasn't accurate enough while taking the first pictures - they aren't taken from exactly abowe the Kris, and Kris itself doesn't lay perfectly parallely to the ground. Here is a comparison with a Maguindanao piece. I suppose, generally we possibly would find out that later Kris tend to be "stiffer" in all regions. Attached Images

2nd October 2020, 01:20 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,303	Ah................I acquired mine after the exhibition.