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M ELEY · 15th August 2020, 06:07 AM

Hello Ahmad. Judging from the files you originally uploaded, I am of the opinion that your weapon is an espada of Spanish colonial manufacture. The flat tang with side slats and rivets are classical features for these type pieces, as is the "S" shaped guard. What remains of the slat wood grips also looks like the desert wood (forgive me, I'm not sure if Mesquite, etc) often found on such pieces. Even the copper rivets used to secure the grips classic for espada (both ancha swords and Mexican bowie-type knives such as yours). This example would probably date ca. 1800-60's, pre- and post-Revolution period. A very interesting piece!

Ahmad · 15th August 2020, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Hello Ahmad. Judging from the files you originally uploaded, I am of the opinion that your weapon is an espada of Spanish colonial manufacture. The flat tang with side slats and rivets are classical features for these type pieces, as is the "S" shaped guard. What remains of the slat wood grips also looks like the desert wood (forgive me, I'm not sure if Mesquite, etc) often found on such pieces. Even the copper rivets used to secure the grips classic for espada (both ancha swords and Mexican bowie-type knives such as yours). This example would probably date ca. 1800-60's, pre- and post-Revolution period. A very interesting piece!

Hi M Eley ,

Thank you very much for your opnion on my stuff .
It so useful for me ..to make an answer or some explanation about it .

Cheers

Battara · 15th August 2020, 07:49 PM

Since the photos are still not uploaded per forum rules, I will have to look this thread (also to protect the site from malware).

fernando · 19th August 2020, 11:37 AM

Thread unlocked; photos extracted, converted, resized and uploaded as per protocol.

.

mariusgmioc · 19th August 2020, 01:42 PM

To me this does not look like a weapon but more like a utility cleaver or machete.

Anyhow, definitely not a pedang... in my oppinion.

PS: Yet, the presence of the crossguard somehow confuses me (I mean confuses me more than I usually am)...

fernando · 19th August 2020, 01:53 PM

Not the blade shape of a Espada Ancha, anyway ... right ?

Battara · 20th August 2020, 01:39 AM

Thank you Fernando. I will move this to the European side.

fernando · 20th August 2020, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ahmad

Hi M Eley ,

Thank you very much for your opnion on my stuff .
It so useful for me ..to make an answer or some explanation about it .

Cheers

Say Ahmad; does this example belong in your collection ? What part of the world did you acquire it from ?

fernando · 20th August 2020, 11:05 AM

I would not know how to name this item but, within my ignorance, i would dare say that, the parts that make it resemble a espada ancha are infinitely less than those that don't make it look like one ... even if just their derivation. The blade is much shorter and off shape, the grip may have a similar approah but, the whole hilt complex certainly doesn't.
Let us see if Ahmad tells us where i bought it from, assuming he did it. That may help to through some light to it.

Jim McDougall · 20th August 2020, 05:07 PM

It is as often, the issue of name of an item for classification purposes while the item itself carries various characteristics of several forms and elements which place it in variant status. Collectors are inherently inclined to seek specific categorization and wish to avoid added qualifying description in many cases.

The term 'bolo' is a broadly used word in Philippine description of edged weapons which were in many cases tools or implements, which often served as arms to the point that they were even included in certain Filipino martial arts.

As can be seen in this plate, various of this genre fall into the collective category yet their characters defy distinct categoric description.

The espada ancha, like many ethnographic edged weapons, has a quite collective categorization which varies in degree in use with similar disparities.
The term itself means literally 'large sword', and seems to refer mostly to the very stout blades on many, even most, of the frontier versions. In other cases, military blades or civilian arming blades shortened occur in the wear as accouterments in more dress settings mounted in these hilts are termed 'espada ancha'. I have one such from Santa Fe, N.M. in this manner (no pics yet avail.) but clearly not fit for the rugged frontier use.

In the case of this 'bolo', I agree the comparison to espada ancha by term is tenuous in degree, but that the hilt on this archipelago edged weapon or tool is clearly with 'European' styling with guard in that character. The riveted grip plates recall the espada ancha hilts, but of course overall, I would say this would not be in the espada ancha category. The comparison however would be viable in degree reflecting the possible Spanish influence with the guard.
Note the curled pommel on the bottom example in the plate of illustrations .

This would seem a 'bolo' type (in group) element, paired with the European type guard, and the blade of undetermined type but clearly a chopper for utility type use primarily.

19th August 2020, 11:37 AM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thread unlocked; photos extracted, converted, resized and uploaded as per protocol. . Attached Images

19th August 2020, 01:42 PM	#5
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	To me this does not look like a weapon but more like a utility cleaver or machete. Anyhow, definitely not a pedang... in my oppinion. PS: Yet, the presence of the crossguard somehow confuses me (I mean confuses me more than I usually am)... Last edited by mariusgmioc; 19th August 2020 at 02:31 PM.

20th August 2020, 05:07 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,379	It is as often, the issue of name of an item for classification purposes while the item itself carries various characteristics of several forms and elements which place it in variant status. Collectors are inherently inclined to seek specific categorization and wish to avoid added qualifying description in many cases. The term 'bolo' is a broadly used word in Philippine description of edged weapons which were in many cases tools or implements, which often served as arms to the point that they were even included in certain Filipino martial arts. As can be seen in this plate, various of this genre fall into the collective category yet their characters defy distinct categoric description. The espada ancha, like many ethnographic edged weapons, has a quite collective categorization which varies in degree in use with similar disparities. The term itself means literally 'large sword', and seems to refer mostly to the very stout blades on many, even most, of the frontier versions. In other cases, military blades or civilian arming blades shortened occur in the wear as accouterments in more dress settings mounted in these hilts are termed 'espada ancha'. I have one such from Santa Fe, N.M. in this manner (no pics yet avail.) but clearly not fit for the rugged frontier use. In the case of this 'bolo', I agree the comparison to espada ancha by term is tenuous in degree, but that the hilt on this archipelago edged weapon or tool is clearly with 'European' styling with guard in that character. The riveted grip plates recall the espada ancha hilts, but of course overall, I would say this would not be in the espada ancha category. The comparison however would be viable in degree reflecting the possible Spanish influence with the guard. Note the curled pommel on the bottom example in the plate of illustrations . This would seem a 'bolo' type (in group) element, paired with the European type guard, and the blade of undetermined type but clearly a chopper for utility type use primarily. Attached Images

15th August 2020, 06:07 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,178	Hello Ahmad. Judging from the files you originally uploaded, I am of the opinion that your weapon is an espada of Spanish colonial manufacture. The flat tang with side slats and rivets are classical features for these type pieces, as is the "S" shaped guard. What remains of the slat wood grips also looks like the desert wood (forgive me, I'm not sure if Mesquite, etc) often found on such pieces. Even the copper rivets used to secure the grips classic for espada (both ancha swords and Mexican bowie-type knives such as yours). This example would probably date ca. 1800-60's, pre- and post-Revolution period. A very interesting piece!

15th August 2020, 07:49 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,299	Since the photos are still not uploaded per forum rules, I will have to look this thread (also to protect the site from malware).

19th August 2020, 01:53 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Not the blade shape of a Espada Ancha, anyway ... right ?

20th August 2020, 01:39 AM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,299	Thank you Fernando. I will move this to the European side.

20th August 2020, 11:05 AM	#9
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I would not know how to name this item but, within my ignorance, i would dare say that, the parts that make it resemble a espada ancha are infinitely less than those that don't make it look like one ... even if just their derivation. The blade is much shorter and off shape, the grip may have a similar approah but, the whole hilt complex certainly doesn't. Let us see if Ahmad tells us where i bought it from, assuming he did it. That may help to through some light to it.