19th Century Indian Dagger, or Not?

ALEX · 29th August 2007, 02:38 PM

The Indian daggers of various forms are produced in abundance nowadays, and masterfully (with silver coftgari, watered steel , stamps, etc). I've seen so many of them, and more often they're marketed as originals. True, they look similar, i.e. are good copies, and it is sad to see so many people getting cheated.
This dagger was marketed as 19th Cent. and sold accordingly. Something tells me it is 20/21 Cent/new. Any ideas/opinions?

http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/504...spagenameZWDVW

CourseEight · 29th August 2007, 03:45 PM

Based on the one I have that you and Valjhun helped me with, I am inclined to agree with you. The hatch pattern on the handle near the base of the blade is quite similar to mine, as is the pattern of the steel.

asomotif · 29th August 2007, 04:20 PM

I have seen similar quility daggers on antique markets the last few years.
Prices between Usd 200 - 400
At that price it was obvious to cheap to be very old/original.

But indeed, I would not spot the difference between a well made new one and a well preserved antique...

Lew · 29th August 2007, 05:08 PM

1970s-90s reproduction.

Lew

ariel · 29th August 2007, 06:33 PM

Look at the blade: the same "damascus" pattern as on known and openly acknowledged replicas.

ALEX · 29th August 2007, 07:50 PM

Thank you all for confirming the fact. I was just surprised that the item was sold on the auction's floor, i.e being mis-represented by an auctioneer in person

These daggers usually cost at least 10 times less. Recently I saw a Mughal dagger with carved green jade hilt, magnificently pattern-welded/layered armour-piercing 12'' blade with a gold-leaf stamp on it. It was made a few months ago in India, the cost was less than $100!
Interesting fact and a thought: 90% of Phoenician, Roman, etc. "antiquities" sold on E-Bay are obvious fakes (most of them come from Middle-East villages where making them is a sole industry). So if a 20-dollar 5th Cent AD Phoenician millefiori glass bowl is easily (and consistently) selling for over $1000 on E-Bay, what's wrong with using the same "marketing" method with other products?

katana · 29th August 2007, 09:28 PM

It is also interesting to note that there are no 'close ups' of the blade....and I would ask 'why?' Overall the impression is that it is recent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

I was just surprised that the item was sold on the auction's floor, i.e being mis-represented by an auctioneer in person

The conditions of sale

'.........has exercised reasonable care to catalog and describe correctly the property to be sold, but neither E****'s nor its consignors warrant the correctness of description, attribution, authenticity, or condition of said property. No statements shall be deemed such a warranty or representation or an assumption of liability with respect thereto, but are to be construed as opinions only...........' ... I think you could call that a 'get out clause'

Yannis · 30th August 2007, 12:33 PM

I got one of these lot of years ago when I knew nothing about antiques.

But I cannot believe there are persons that buy them for real today and in that prices

ALEX · 30th August 2007, 02:40 PM

I definitely share your misbelieve Yannis.
I see so many other mis-represented copies being sold/bought even for more outrageous amounts, and hopefully our posts will promote knowledge and raise awareness among people who read them.

Lew · 30th August 2007, 05:16 PM

I attended the Timonium a couple of years ago and there was a seller with lots of these new daggers on his table and they were all high priced. When I told him they were modern repros he became angry and told me I should read some books. I shot back with I didn't know that the Mohguls used super glue to attach the blades to the hilts? (there was super glue all over the blades near the hilt) at that point he just shut up

Lew

29th August 2007, 02:38 PM	#1
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 935	19th Century Indian Dagger, or Not? The Indian daggers of various forms are produced in abundance nowadays, and masterfully (with silver coftgari, watered steel , stamps, etc). I've seen so many of them, and more often they're marketed as originals. True, they look similar, i.e. are good copies, and it is sad to see so many people getting cheated. This dagger was marketed as 19th Cent. and sold accordingly. Something tells me it is 20/21 Cent/new. Any ideas/opinions? http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/504...spagenameZWDVW

29th August 2007, 03:45 PM	#2
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	Based on the one I have that you and Valjhun helped me with, I am inclined to agree with you. The hatch pattern on the handle near the base of the blade is quite similar to mine, as is the pattern of the steel.

29th August 2007, 04:20 PM	#3
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,221	I have seen similar quility daggers on antique markets the last few years. Prices between Usd 200 - 400 At that price it was obvious to cheap to be very old/original. But indeed, I would not spot the difference between a well made new one and a well preserved antique...

29th August 2007, 05:08 PM	#4
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	1970s-90s reproduction. Lew

29th August 2007, 06:33 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Look at the blade: the same "damascus" pattern as on known and openly acknowledged replicas.

29th August 2007, 07:50 PM	#6
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 935	Thank you all for confirming the fact. I was just surprised that the item was sold on the auction's floor, i.e being mis-represented by an auctioneer in person These daggers usually cost at least 10 times less. Recently I saw a Mughal dagger with carved green jade hilt, magnificently pattern-welded/layered armour-piercing 12'' blade with a gold-leaf stamp on it. It was made a few months ago in India, the cost was less than $100! Interesting fact and a thought: 90% of Phoenician, Roman, etc. "antiquities" sold on E-Bay are obvious fakes (most of them come from Middle-East villages where making them is a sole industry). So if a 20-dollar 5th Cent AD Phoenician millefiori glass bowl is easily (and consistently) selling for over $1000 on E-Bay, what's wrong with using the same "marketing" method with other products?

30th August 2007, 12:33 PM	#8
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	I got one of these lot of years ago when I knew nothing about antiques. But I cannot believe there are persons that buy them for real today and in that prices

30th August 2007, 02:40 PM	#9
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 935	I definitely share your misbelieve Yannis. I see so many other mis-represented copies being sold/bought even for more outrageous amounts, and hopefully our posts will promote knowledge and raise awareness among people who read them.

30th August 2007, 05:16 PM	#10
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	I attended the Timonium a couple of years ago and there was a seller with lots of these new daggers on his table and they were all high priced. When I told him they were modern repros he became angry and told me I should read some books. I shot back with I didn't know that the Mohguls used super glue to attach the blades to the hilts? (there was super glue all over the blades near the hilt) at that point he just shut up Lew