Borneo Piso

Tim Simmons · 11th January 2009, 04:08 PM

Pedang? I lost a few African friends but found this new one. I do not know much about this kind of thing. The blade is just over 48cm long and 8mm on the back at the forte so quite a sturdy blade. The blade has a clipped edge or is that also known as a false edge? The blade also displays several layers of pattern which I cannot capture today as the light has gone. The blade is not European. The scabbard is sleaved in what appears to be a heavier gauge of silver foil. Shark or ray skin on the antler grip which has a monster form with a grotesque face at the handle end. Any information as to where and what this is would be very nice.

Tim Simmons · 12th January 2009, 10:45 AM

Some details of the blade and another face on the hilt. I am still of the opinion that this is not a european blade. It does appear to have originally been a polished blade? One side seems more etched than the other.

Tim Simmons · 14th January 2009, 07:57 PM

Is this unusual? common?

Freddy · 14th January 2009, 08:40 PM

Nice piece, Tim.

Couldn't it be possible that the blade is part of some kind of sabre ? A broken blade which has been recycled ?

Tim Simmons · 14th January 2009, 09:17 PM

I do not know. The width at the forte to be precise is 8.5mm and the blade is only 48cm long, that would mean it came from an extreamly heavy sabre. Especially being the top part of the sabre?

TVV · 14th January 2009, 09:43 PM

To me it looks like a European sabre inspired blade, but not like an actual European made one.

Tim Simmons · 15th January 2009, 06:39 PM

Tjikeroeh Java blade? Would that mean this is not from British North Borneo?

Maurice · 17th January 2009, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Tjikeroeh Java blade? Would that mean this is not from British North Borneo?

Hi Tim, it doesn,t smell like Borneo to me....

Maybe a composition made in Java??

(just a guess).

Maybe Willem or Ben can step in.

Maurice

VVV · 18th January 2009, 04:46 PM

I suspect that this is a later, "creative" composition, probably from Kuching, Sarawak.

Michael

Tim Simmons · 18th January 2009, 06:24 PM

Oh dear I am sorry to hear this. I swapped some nice African things for this. The scabbard is silver. The antler handle does appear to be as old as my other mandau. The hilt and blade have been together some time. There are only small bits of gunge left on the hilt. As the tears flow, it came from a good source.

Tim Simmons · 18th January 2009, 06:50 PM

Is it possible that it is a form of "Niabor"? as shown in this link only with a more Eruopean inspired blade that might even be imported from other regions?
http://old.blades.free.fr/swords/day...ayak_intro.htm

Tim Simmons · 18th January 2009, 06:55 PM

And here much more curved.
http://webprojects.prm.ox.ac.uk/arms...ers/1924.68.1/

VVV · 18th January 2009, 07:18 PM

I am sorry Tim.
Maybe I shouldn't have commented it?
But as you have so many great blades, like your other mandau, I thought you weren't that sensitive about it by now.
Unfortunately this is part of collecting and it happens to all of us now and then...

Michael

Tim Simmons · 18th January 2009, 07:23 PM

No we need the truth as far as we currently undrestand it to be. I am just a bit xxxxxx off that I gave some good bits for it. Knowing the source I still have a little hope.

Tim Simmons · 18th January 2009, 09:29 PM

Please excuse me I do not really want to labour a subject, but untill I see or have good reason explained to me. I shall continue to suggest that we do not know all forms of weapons in a specific region. Take this book in the link. Pirate communities are most often mixed and make a living from taking a bit of this and a bit of that perhaps also a little trade.
http://www.naval-military-press.com/...-pr-20737.html

Tim Simmons · 18th January 2009, 09:41 PM

I am not sure if this link will work but the blade could be Malay.
http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=2&gl=uk

Tim Simmons · 21st January 2009, 05:51 PM

19th century Sarawak having around 20% Malay population, I really have to press for more substantial information on the possible origin of an item like this.

Tim Simmons · 22nd January 2009, 06:06 PM

There is some debate as to the value of this carved antler handle especially as this form is not in the books and is in current use by the tourist industry today. Over the years I have learnt that the books are really only a guide. Most of my collection is not in the books perhaps that is why I could afford to buy them. I could also suggest that the current tourist industry form must surely have a point of origin, perhaps not fully appriecated, you know how conservative parts of the weapon collecting world can be.

I am a carver myself. You can see pleny of pride in this work, carved nooks and crannies lots of leechs. The Medusa type head on the end must have looked super before the damage. Why carve all that and then damage it? does not make sense to me. Why not fake it up complete and get a better price. I post these close up pics and every one will just have to make there own minds up. I think you know which way my mind is set.

Mytribalworld · 22nd January 2009, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

There is some debate as to the value of this carved antler handle especially as this form is not in the books and is in current use by the tourist industry today. Over the years I have learnt that the books are really only a guide. Most of my collection is not in the books perhaps that is why I could afford to buy them. I could also suggest that the current tourist industry form must surely have a point of origin, perhaps not fully appriecated, you know how conservative parts of the weapon collecting world can be.

I am a carver myself. You can see pleny of pride in this work, carved nooks and crannies lots of leechs. The Medusa type head on the end must have looked super before the damage. Why carve all that and then damage it? does not make sense to me. Why not fake it up complete and get a better price. I post these close up pics and every one will just have to make there own minds up. I think you know which way my mind is set.

Hi Tim,

Actually I don't think the whole item is a fake. Based on what I see on carving and damage , patina etc on the handle I think it was once a knob of a walking stick. Also dayak carvers made walking sticks. I don't think its antique but more from the 50 or 60's. If its was earlier the carving is mostly finer. The scabbard and blade are in my opinion added on Java or Bali.
The combination is certainly not matching.
The handle is surely not bad. Feel free to ask opinions in the future from me or other forumities before you trade/swap.
My advice, separate the handle and base it... But maybe that an easy advice as I am mandauhilt collector.But sometimes I like a handle more without blade than with.

on the place where the resin ring begins the horn seems to be in two pieces?

Arjan.

Tim Simmons · 22nd January 2009, 08:08 PM

Thank you, your comments are in the least encouraging. I still cannot see why it is not what it is. Given that Sarawak was a mixing pot. Nobody has suggested or produced anything that in any way distracts from what it appears to be. A short sword

.

Tim Simmons · 22nd January 2009, 08:49 PM

Giving up for today I can only assume that this is a reletively rare. Rather like the mauser thing.

Tim Simmons · 25th January 2009, 05:55 PM

Yep its a dud. Doing more investigation I have disscovered that the blade has been set into the handle with melted plastic from a washing up bowl or something similar. So I got my arse well and truely kicked.

Tim Simmons · 29th January 2009, 08:38 PM

Something from the Borneo wars. British soldiers in remote parts of Sabah and Sarawak. Tribesmen putting modern things to use? Lets look at this agian when does this form of hilt appear? I cannot see the handle as bad work. Is it possible as suggested before that as time moves on forms do change. Does that mean they are fake?

Tim Simmons · 29th January 2009, 09:04 PM

http://www.nmbva.co.uk/

asomotif · 29th January 2009, 09:17 PM

Hello Tim,

I did not really look into this thread before.
To be honest because at first impression the piece does look like something put together for the tourists.

The blade and scabbard appear to be matching, but they must be something from Java IMHO.might well be early 20th century.

The handle as Arjan already mentioned is carved pretty rough and not very traditional. sometimes you see mandaus with hilts that have more or less this style. It is not what most collectors are looking for in a mandau hilt.
But as times change also designs on Borneo change.
So it can be a mandau handle maybe from the 70'.

Than there is the red wrapping around the hilt.
Is it some kind of ray skin ? or is it plastic imitation ray skin ?
This is something that I would certainly place outside of Borneo.

Than you mention that the hilt was fixed with melted plastic.
if it was put together on Borneo I think they would have used resin / damar as this is the traditional way of fixing hilts on Borneo.

All together, my opinion is also that the piece was put together.
Where, I do not know. But not by someone with Dayak background.

Best regards,
Willem

VANDOO · 29th January 2009, 09:21 PM

OBSERVATIONS. THE SECTION OF ANTLER USED TO CARVE THE HANDLE WAS NOT THE PRIME PIECE WHICH IS USUALLY USED FOR DAYAK HANDLES. IT APPEARS TO BE FROM A SMALLER ANTLER PERHAPS A SPIKE SO THE LARGE FORK THAT IS USUALLY USED WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN PRESENT ON THAT ANTLER SO THE BUTTON AND FIRST SMALL SPIKE WAS SELECTED FOR CARVING. THAT WOULD LIMIT WHAT COULD BE CARVED AND WOULD DETERMINE THE FINAL SHAPE THESE FACTS DON'T NECESSARILY POINT TO MODIFICATION OR FAKERY AS A SMALLER ANTLER WOULD BE USED IF BETTER ONES WERE NOT AVAILABLE OR THE BUYER WHO WANTED A HANDLE CARVED WAS LOW ON CASH.

THE BLADE IS DEFINITELY NOT ONE MANUFACTURED BY DAYAK AND WOULD NOT BE THE PREFERRED FORM OR STYLE USED BY THEM.
THE RED FLAG I SEE THAT MAKES ME AGREE THAT THIS MAY HAVE COME TOGETHER IN BALI IS THE USE OF DYED RAYSKIN THERE IS AN INDUSTRY OF THAT IN BALI AND QUITE A LOT OF WEAPONS ARE EITHER MADE OR FIND THEIR WAY TO BALI'S SHOPS. THE CARVERS COULD EASILY HAVE CARVED THE HANDLE AND IF THE PIECE OF ANTLER THAT IS STILL ROUGH IS SEPARATE FROM THE CARVED POMMEL OR IS PART OF THE SAME ANTLER BUT LEFT ROUGH THAT WOULD NOT BE A DAYAK CARVING TECKNIQUE OR AT LEAST I HAVE NEVER SEEN IT BEFORE.
THIS DISCUSSION IS PRODUCTIVE IN THAT WE ALL WILL BE MORE ON GAURD AND AWARE SO WILL LOOK MUCH CLOSER AT SUCH ITEMS. STILL IT IS A NICE LOOKING ITEM AND WHO KNOWS SOME LOCAL IN SARAWAK/KUCHING MAY HAVE COBBLED IT TOGETHER BUT THE ODDS SEEM TO BE AGAINST IT UNLESS THEY IMPORTED SOME RAYSKIN FROM BALI.

Tim Simmons · 29th January 2009, 09:23 PM

It is real ray or shark skin I have no idea if it is dyed but i do know the are some colourful sharks and rays? In many ways melting a plastic trade bucket or bowl is a lot easier than the traditional resin route as I have tried myself? Instant glue and cheap? I accept it is a trade blade, what is odd about that?

Tim Simmons · 29th January 2009, 09:30 PM

Do we know all the colours of Shark and Ray skins? The small eyed ray seems to fit the colour rather well.
http://www.wildlifeonline.me.uk/sharks_rays.html#colour

Tim Simmons · 29th January 2009, 09:38 PM

Pink whip ray from Malaysian waters.
http://www.fish.gov.au/fishnames/photos/37035003.jpg

VANDOO · 29th January 2009, 11:06 PM

NORMALY CURED OR TANNED RAY SKIN LOOKS WHITE AS IT IS MADE UP OF LARGE DENTICLES (BONE) WITH SKIN BEHIND AND BETWEEN THEM YOU HAVE PROBABLY SEEN THE RAYSKIN ON SAMAURAI SWORDS AND SUCH. THEY USED TO BLEACH IT TO BE EVEN WHITER THAN THE NATURALLY TANNED AND DRIED SKINS FOR THOSE HANDLE GRIPS AS WHITE WAS PREFERRED. I AM NOT SURE WHAT SPECIES OF RAY IS USED AS MOST DO NOT HAVE THE SKIN WITH THE BIG DENTICLES THAT IS PREFERRED FOR USE AS RAYSKIN ON SWORD GRIPS, ECT. I HAVE PERSONALLY SKINED STINGRAYS AND SKATES AND SHARKS BUT NONE OF THE SPECIES I WORKED ON WAS THE ONE USED TO MAKE THIS RAYSKIN.
IN BALI I VISITED SEVERAL SHOPS SELLING LEATHER GOODS MADE FROM RAYSKIN THERE WAS A WIDE SELECTION OF COLORS AVAILABLE BLUE, PURPLE, RED, GREEN, WHITE BUT I PERSONALLY PREFERRED THE BLACK OR TAN-BROWN COLOR MOST. THEY ALSO DYE SNAKESKINS AND SEA SNAKE SKIN WAS VERY POPULAR IN JAPAN A FEW YEARS BACK AND PROBABLY STILL IS. SO I SERIOUSLY DOUBT THE RED RAYSKIN IS A NATURAL COLOR.

11th January 2009, 04:08 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Borneo Piso Pedang? I lost a few African friends but found this new one. I do not know much about this kind of thing. The blade is just over 48cm long and 8mm on the back at the forte so quite a sturdy blade. The blade has a clipped edge or is that also known as a false edge? The blade also displays several layers of pattern which I cannot capture today as the light has gone. The blade is not European. The scabbard is sleaved in what appears to be a heavier gauge of silver foil. Shark or ray skin on the antler grip which has a monster form with a grotesque face at the handle end. Any information as to where and what this is would be very nice. Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 11th January 2009 at 08:37 PM.

12th January 2009, 10:45 AM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Some details of the blade and another face on the hilt. I am still of the opinion that this is not a european blade. It does appear to have originally been a polished blade? One side seems more etched than the other. Attached Images

18th January 2009, 09:29 PM	#15
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Please excuse me I do not really want to labour a subject, but untill I see or have good reason explained to me. I shall continue to suggest that we do not know all forms of weapons in a specific region. Take this book in the link. Pirate communities are most often mixed and make a living from taking a bit of this and a bit of that perhaps also a little trade. http://www.naval-military-press.com/...-pr-20737.html Last edited by Tim Simmons; 18th January 2009 at 09:31 PM. Reason: spelling

22nd January 2009, 06:06 PM	#18
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	There is some debate as to the value of this carved antler handle especially as this form is not in the books and is in current use by the tourist industry today. Over the years I have learnt that the books are really only a guide. Most of my collection is not in the books perhaps that is why I could afford to buy them. I could also suggest that the current tourist industry form must surely have a point of origin, perhaps not fully appriecated, you know how conservative parts of the weapon collecting world can be. I am a carver myself. You can see pleny of pride in this work, carved nooks and crannies lots of leechs. The Medusa type head on the end must have looked super before the damage. Why carve all that and then damage it? does not make sense to me. Why not fake it up complete and get a better price. I post these close up pics and every one will just have to make there own minds up. I think you know which way my mind is set. Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 22nd January 2009 at 06:43 PM. Reason: Spelling

22nd January 2009, 08:08 PM	#20
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Thank you, your comments are in the least encouraging. I still cannot see why it is not what it is. Given that Sarawak was a mixing pot. Nobody has suggested or produced anything that in any way distracts from what it appears to be. A short sword . Last edited by Tim Simmons; 22nd January 2009 at 08:23 PM. Reason: Spelling

14th January 2009, 07:57 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Is this unusual? common?

14th January 2009, 08:40 PM	#4
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	Nice piece, Tim. Couldn't it be possible that the blade is part of some kind of sabre ? A broken blade which has been recycled ?

14th January 2009, 09:17 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	I do not know. The width at the forte to be precise is 8.5mm and the blade is only 48cm long, that would mean it came from an extreamly heavy sabre. Especially being the top part of the sabre?

14th January 2009, 09:43 PM	#6
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,598	To me it looks like a European sabre inspired blade, but not like an actual European made one.

15th January 2009, 06:39 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Tjikeroeh Java blade? Would that mean this is not from British North Borneo?

18th January 2009, 04:46 PM	#9
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	I suspect that this is a later, "creative" composition, probably from Kuching, Sarawak. Michael

18th January 2009, 06:24 PM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Oh dear I am sorry to hear this. I swapped some nice African things for this. The scabbard is silver. The antler handle does appear to be as old as my other mandau. The hilt and blade have been together some time. There are only small bits of gunge left on the hilt. As the tears flow, it came from a good source.

18th January 2009, 06:50 PM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Is it possible that it is a form of "Niabor"? as shown in this link only with a more Eruopean inspired blade that might even be imported from other regions? http://old.blades.free.fr/swords/day...ayak_intro.htm

18th January 2009, 06:55 PM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	And here much more curved. http://webprojects.prm.ox.ac.uk/arms...ers/1924.68.1/

18th January 2009, 07:18 PM	#13
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	I am sorry Tim. Maybe I shouldn't have commented it? But as you have so many great blades, like your other mandau, I thought you weren't that sensitive about it by now. Unfortunately this is part of collecting and it happens to all of us now and then... Michael

18th January 2009, 07:23 PM	#14
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	No we need the truth as far as we currently undrestand it to be. I am just a bit xxxxxx off that I gave some good bits for it. Knowing the source I still have a little hope.

18th January 2009, 09:41 PM	#16
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	I am not sure if this link will work but the blade could be Malay. http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=2&gl=uk

21st January 2009, 05:51 PM	#17
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	19th century Sarawak having around 20% Malay population, I really have to press for more substantial information on the possible origin of an item like this.

22nd January 2009, 08:49 PM	#21
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Giving up for today I can only assume that this is a reletively rare. Rather like the mauser thing.

25th January 2009, 05:55 PM	#22
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Yep its a dud. Doing more investigation I have disscovered that the blade has been set into the handle with melted plastic from a washing up bowl or something similar. So I got my arse well and truely kicked.

29th January 2009, 08:38 PM	#23
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Something from the Borneo wars. British soldiers in remote parts of Sabah and Sarawak. Tribesmen putting modern things to use? Lets look at this agian when does this form of hilt appear? I cannot see the handle as bad work. Is it possible as suggested before that as time moves on forms do change. Does that mean they are fake?

29th January 2009, 09:04 PM	#24
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	http://www.nmbva.co.uk/

29th January 2009, 09:17 PM	#25
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,221	Hello Tim, I did not really look into this thread before. To be honest because at first impression the piece does look like something put together for the tourists. The blade and scabbard appear to be matching, but they must be something from Java IMHO.might well be early 20th century. The handle as Arjan already mentioned is carved pretty rough and not very traditional. sometimes you see mandaus with hilts that have more or less this style. It is not what most collectors are looking for in a mandau hilt. But as times change also designs on Borneo change. So it can be a mandau handle maybe from the 70'. Than there is the red wrapping around the hilt. Is it some kind of ray skin ? or is it plastic imitation ray skin ? This is something that I would certainly place outside of Borneo. Than you mention that the hilt was fixed with melted plastic. if it was put together on Borneo I think they would have used resin / damar as this is the traditional way of fixing hilts on Borneo. All together, my opinion is also that the piece was put together. Where, I do not know. But not by someone with Dayak background. Best regards, Willem

29th January 2009, 09:21 PM	#26
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	OBSERVATIONS. THE SECTION OF ANTLER USED TO CARVE THE HANDLE WAS NOT THE PRIME PIECE WHICH IS USUALLY USED FOR DAYAK HANDLES. IT APPEARS TO BE FROM A SMALLER ANTLER PERHAPS A SPIKE SO THE LARGE FORK THAT IS USUALLY USED WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN PRESENT ON THAT ANTLER SO THE BUTTON AND FIRST SMALL SPIKE WAS SELECTED FOR CARVING. THAT WOULD LIMIT WHAT COULD BE CARVED AND WOULD DETERMINE THE FINAL SHAPE THESE FACTS DON'T NECESSARILY POINT TO MODIFICATION OR FAKERY AS A SMALLER ANTLER WOULD BE USED IF BETTER ONES WERE NOT AVAILABLE OR THE BUYER WHO WANTED A HANDLE CARVED WAS LOW ON CASH. THE BLADE IS DEFINITELY NOT ONE MANUFACTURED BY DAYAK AND WOULD NOT BE THE PREFERRED FORM OR STYLE USED BY THEM. THE RED FLAG I SEE THAT MAKES ME AGREE THAT THIS MAY HAVE COME TOGETHER IN BALI IS THE USE OF DYED RAYSKIN THERE IS AN INDUSTRY OF THAT IN BALI AND QUITE A LOT OF WEAPONS ARE EITHER MADE OR FIND THEIR WAY TO BALI'S SHOPS. THE CARVERS COULD EASILY HAVE CARVED THE HANDLE AND IF THE PIECE OF ANTLER THAT IS STILL ROUGH IS SEPARATE FROM THE CARVED POMMEL OR IS PART OF THE SAME ANTLER BUT LEFT ROUGH THAT WOULD NOT BE A DAYAK CARVING TECKNIQUE OR AT LEAST I HAVE NEVER SEEN IT BEFORE. THIS DISCUSSION IS PRODUCTIVE IN THAT WE ALL WILL BE MORE ON GAURD AND AWARE SO WILL LOOK MUCH CLOSER AT SUCH ITEMS. STILL IT IS A NICE LOOKING ITEM AND WHO KNOWS SOME LOCAL IN SARAWAK/KUCHING MAY HAVE COBBLED IT TOGETHER BUT THE ODDS SEEM TO BE AGAINST IT UNLESS THEY IMPORTED SOME RAYSKIN FROM BALI.

29th January 2009, 09:23 PM	#27
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	It is real ray or shark skin I have no idea if it is dyed but i do know the are some colourful sharks and rays? In many ways melting a plastic trade bucket or bowl is a lot easier than the traditional resin route as I have tried myself? Instant glue and cheap? I accept it is a trade blade, what is odd about that?

29th January 2009, 09:30 PM	#28
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Do we know all the colours of Shark and Ray skins? The small eyed ray seems to fit the colour rather well. http://www.wildlifeonline.me.uk/sharks_rays.html#colour

29th January 2009, 09:38 PM	#29
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Pink whip ray from Malaysian waters. http://www.fish.gov.au/fishnames/photos/37035003.jpg Last edited by Tim Simmons; 29th January 2009 at 09:47 PM. Reason: spelling

29th January 2009, 11:06 PM	#30
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	NORMALY CURED OR TANNED RAY SKIN LOOKS WHITE AS IT IS MADE UP OF LARGE DENTICLES (BONE) WITH SKIN BEHIND AND BETWEEN THEM YOU HAVE PROBABLY SEEN THE RAYSKIN ON SAMAURAI SWORDS AND SUCH. THEY USED TO BLEACH IT TO BE EVEN WHITER THAN THE NATURALLY TANNED AND DRIED SKINS FOR THOSE HANDLE GRIPS AS WHITE WAS PREFERRED. I AM NOT SURE WHAT SPECIES OF RAY IS USED AS MOST DO NOT HAVE THE SKIN WITH THE BIG DENTICLES THAT IS PREFERRED FOR USE AS RAYSKIN ON SWORD GRIPS, ECT. I HAVE PERSONALLY SKINED STINGRAYS AND SKATES AND SHARKS BUT NONE OF THE SPECIES I WORKED ON WAS THE ONE USED TO MAKE THIS RAYSKIN. IN BALI I VISITED SEVERAL SHOPS SELLING LEATHER GOODS MADE FROM RAYSKIN THERE WAS A WIDE SELECTION OF COLORS AVAILABLE BLUE, PURPLE, RED, GREEN, WHITE BUT I PERSONALLY PREFERRED THE BLACK OR TAN-BROWN COLOR MOST. THEY ALSO DYE SNAKESKINS AND SEA SNAKE SKIN WAS VERY POPULAR IN JAPAN A FEW YEARS BACK AND PROBABLY STILL IS. SO I SERIOUSLY DOUBT THE RED RAYSKIN IS A NATURAL COLOR.