Please help ID these spears

Clubs & Arrows · 1st September 2010, 03:38 AM

Hello.
I originally picked these two spears up as part of a collection a few years ago, and then a friend told me that they were Moro. Until just the other day, I never thought anything about it, but now that I've taken another look at them, I think that they might be Indonesian. Possibly Javanese? The one with the longer blade measures 79 1/2" in overall length. The shaft is black palmwood, and the spearhead stands 13 1/4" from tip to the top of the brass ferrule.
The spear with the small leaf shaped blade measures 84 1/2" in overall length. The head is about 6 1/2" from tip to top of the brass ferrule. The shaft on this one is also Palm. Any help would be appreciated.

Thank you,
Joe

Henk · 1st September 2010, 04:00 PM

I think these spears come from Sumatra or Borneo. The one with the large spearhead could be a Moro Budiak. It probably is.

Clubs & Arrows · 1st September 2010, 04:30 PM

Hi Henk,
Thank you for your help.

Best regards,
Joe

Henk · 1st September 2010, 06:21 PM

Hi Joe,

You're welcome.

Sajen · 1st September 2010, 07:42 PM

I also would Indonesia but not from Java. Most probable from Sumatra like Henk write.

Detlef

Clubs & Arrows · 2nd September 2010, 07:03 PM

Sajen,
Thank you for your help on figuring these out.

Best regards,
Joe

Rick · 2nd September 2010, 07:38 PM

Close ups of the bases (methuk) of these spearheads might be enlightening .

Would also like to see the heads themselves photographed in daylight .

Clubs & Arrows · 2nd September 2010, 08:50 PM

Hi Rick,
Here are a few outdoor shots. Sorry about the shadows in some of the pics.

Thanks again for any help,
Joe

Rick · 3rd September 2010, 02:19 AM

Thank you .

It seems the larger one has pamor .
The facets on the methuk area are unfamiliar to me .

A four sided tang on the large spear ?

Clubs & Arrows · 3rd September 2010, 03:24 AM

Hi Rick,
Yes the tang is four sided. I've had both Moro and non-Moro opinions on this spear. Does the band of triangles encircling the shaft seem familiar? Any help with this would be appreciated.

Thanks again,
Joe

Rick · 3rd September 2010, 04:37 AM

There are some differences in the tang construction of Javanese spears :
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12310

The square tang is unusual to me; I admit to being puzzled .
I don't believe I've seen a square tang on a Javanese spear; that's not saying much though .

The head is firmly attached to the shaft, and not removable ?

Clubs & Arrows · 3rd September 2010, 03:14 PM

Hi Rick,
I was able to get the head out to photograph the tang. Any ideas on origin?

Thanks,
Joe

Rick · 3rd September 2010, 03:27 PM

I have seen Javanese spears with this blade profile .

What throws me off is from the Methuk to the tang ...

Usually this area shows more work in the completion; usually a flared part above the tang that hides it when mounted on a haft .

Any chance this could be from Nias ?

I sure can't anchor it to one particular area; it has both Indonesian and Moro aspects .

Clubs & Arrows · 3rd September 2010, 03:52 PM

Rick,
When I purchased this from the previous owner's estate, I did also pick up a Nias stool, so it is possible. One of the problems is that when I purchased the spear, it was along with a lot of Philippine, Oceanic, African, and other Southeast Asian material. Kind of an ethnographic mixed bag. I'll certainly start looking towards Nias to see if I can find anything similar.

Thanks again,
Joe

Henk · 4th September 2010, 06:45 AM

I cann't get rid of the idea this one is Phillipine.

Rick · 4th September 2010, 06:52 AM

It's tempting to do so Henk .
Me, I'm just not sure .
The blade looks like it has been ritually washed a few times .
I'm seeing a topographic surface on this blade .

Henk · 4th September 2010, 10:22 AM

I can imagine Rick. You mentioned before you see pamor on the blade. I tried to discover if i could see the same, maybe it is pamor indeed but i thought it were more forging lines of folding of the metal during forging. I also see some rustspurs. Only in the middle of the blade i see something, but in my opinion that is more twistcore. The blade is in my opinion more comparable with a Moro Budiak.
I cann't see the spurs of ritual washing of this blade on the pics. For me this is a blade i have to hold in my hands to give a good comment.
Fact is it is a beauty and very nice to discuss.

kai · 5th September 2010, 03:16 AM

I'm pretty sure, the larger one is not Moro - the flow of lines doesn't seem to fit...

Regards,
Kai

asomotif · 7th September 2010, 11:53 PM

Quote:

I'm pretty sure, the larger one is not Moro - the flow of lines doesn't seem to fit...

My feeling on the large lance head is Sumatra.
The hexagonal base makes me think of Atjeh. same as the outer line of the blade. The tang is a problem. Normally Atjeh or Sumatra spears have a round tappering tang with a twist near the end. and not this square type without the twist.

Maybe some mix bewteen Nias and Sumatra/ Atjeh influences ?

I have another strange spearhead for discussion.
Will open another thread in order not to confuse this one even more

Best regards,
Willem

1st September 2010, 03:38 AM	#1
Clubs & Arrows Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: San Gabriel Foothills, Southern California Posts: 94	Please help ID these spears Hello. I originally picked these two spears up as part of a collection a few years ago, and then a friend told me that they were Moro. Until just the other day, I never thought anything about it, but now that I've taken another look at them, I think that they might be Indonesian. Possibly Javanese? The one with the longer blade measures 79 1/2" in overall length. The shaft is black palmwood, and the spearhead stands 13 1/4" from tip to the top of the brass ferrule. The spear with the small leaf shaped blade measures 84 1/2" in overall length. The head is about 6 1/2" from tip to top of the brass ferrule. The shaft on this one is also Palm. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you, Joe Attached Images Last edited by Clubs & Arrows; 1st September 2010 at 04:28 PM.

2nd September 2010, 08:50 PM	#8
Clubs & Arrows Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: San Gabriel Foothills, Southern California Posts: 94	Hi Rick, Here are a few outdoor shots. Sorry about the shadows in some of the pics. Thanks again for any help, Joe Attached Images

3rd September 2010, 03:24 AM	#10
Clubs & Arrows Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: San Gabriel Foothills, Southern California Posts: 94	Hi Rick, Yes the tang is four sided. I've had both Moro and non-Moro opinions on this spear. Does the band of triangles encircling the shaft seem familiar? Any help with this would be appreciated. Thanks again, Joe Attached Images

3rd September 2010, 03:14 PM	#12
Clubs & Arrows Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: San Gabriel Foothills, Southern California Posts: 94	Hi Rick, I was able to get the head out to photograph the tang. Any ideas on origin? Thanks, Joe Attached Images

3rd September 2010, 03:27 PM	#13
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	I have seen Javanese spears with this blade profile . What throws me off is from the Methuk to the tang ... Usually this area shows more work in the completion; usually a flared part above the tang that hides it when mounted on a haft . Any chance this could be from Nias ? I sure can't anchor it to one particular area; it has both Indonesian and Moro aspects . Last edited by Rick; 3rd September 2010 at 03:46 PM.

1st September 2010, 04:00 PM	#2
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	I think these spears come from Sumatra or Borneo. The one with the large spearhead could be a Moro Budiak. It probably is.

1st September 2010, 04:30 PM	#3
Clubs & Arrows Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: San Gabriel Foothills, Southern California Posts: 94	Hi Henk, Thank you for your help. Best regards, Joe

1st September 2010, 06:21 PM	#4
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Hi Joe, You're welcome.

1st September 2010, 07:42 PM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,497	I also would Indonesia but not from Java. Most probable from Sumatra like Henk write. Detlef

2nd September 2010, 07:03 PM	#6
Clubs & Arrows Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: San Gabriel Foothills, Southern California Posts: 94	Sajen, Thank you for your help on figuring these out. Best regards, Joe

2nd September 2010, 07:38 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Close ups of the bases (methuk) of these spearheads might be enlightening . Would also like to see the heads themselves photographed in daylight .

3rd September 2010, 02:19 AM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Thank you . It seems the larger one has pamor . The facets on the methuk area are unfamiliar to me . A four sided tang on the large spear ?

3rd September 2010, 04:37 AM	#11
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	There are some differences in the tang construction of Javanese spears : http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12310 The square tang is unusual to me; I admit to being puzzled . I don't believe I've seen a square tang on a Javanese spear; that's not saying much though . The head is firmly attached to the shaft, and not removable ?

3rd September 2010, 03:52 PM	#14
Clubs & Arrows Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: San Gabriel Foothills, Southern California Posts: 94	Rick, When I purchased this from the previous owner's estate, I did also pick up a Nias stool, so it is possible. One of the problems is that when I purchased the spear, it was along with a lot of Philippine, Oceanic, African, and other Southeast Asian material. Kind of an ethnographic mixed bag. I'll certainly start looking towards Nias to see if I can find anything similar. Thanks again, Joe

4th September 2010, 06:45 AM	#15
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	I cann't get rid of the idea this one is Phillipine.

4th September 2010, 06:52 AM	#16
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	It's tempting to do so Henk . Me, I'm just not sure . The blade looks like it has been ritually washed a few times . I'm seeing a topographic surface on this blade .

4th September 2010, 10:22 AM	#17
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	I can imagine Rick. You mentioned before you see pamor on the blade. I tried to discover if i could see the same, maybe it is pamor indeed but i thought it were more forging lines of folding of the metal during forging. I also see some rustspurs. Only in the middle of the blade i see something, but in my opinion that is more twistcore. The blade is in my opinion more comparable with a Moro Budiak. I cann't see the spurs of ritual washing of this blade on the pics. For me this is a blade i have to hold in my hands to give a good comment. Fact is it is a beauty and very nice to discuss.

5th September 2010, 03:16 AM	#18
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,218	I'm pretty sure, the larger one is not Moro - the flow of lines doesn't seem to fit... Regards, Kai