Now for that other sword, Nimcha?

Federico · 18th March 2005, 07:54 PM

Ok, I dont specialize in non-Philippine weaponry. Ive tried to keep afloat with threads to broaden my horizons, but there are just so many swords so few brain cells left. Anyways up for comment is a Nimcha? Ok so if its not, let me know what it is. Anyways, it has a very hefty blade made for use. OAL 40" with a thick 1/4" spine at base. Nicely done fuller. When I was first shown a pic to see if I was interested, I thought the hilt was wood. However, it is a horn material of some kind. Very translucent, with a greenish hue. Sorry I tried and tried to get better pics of the hilt, but this was the best I could do with el camera cheapo. But if you can, any guess what kind of horn? If its water buffalo, Ive never seen color like this before.

Federico · 18th March 2005, 08:01 PM

Ok one more try at a close up of the hilt.

Conogre · 18th March 2005, 08:25 PM

You're right, the camera doesn't cut it for close ups.
Does the hilt feel "grainy" to you?
Mine is rhinocerous horn, which is composed of compressed hair that's quite different from the normal horn more commonly encountered and not "layered" like the karotin based true horn....if those chips show layering, it's deffinitely true horn.
While the nimcha originated in Morocco, from what I've been able to determine it is even more widespread than the kaskara or takouba and widely used throughout the arabic world.
Unless I'm mistaken, those two concrete giant crossed swords that form an arch upon entering the Bagdad airport are nimchas, aren't they?
Mike

Federico · 18th March 2005, 08:57 PM

Mike thanks for the reply. I checked the cracks, and if I am understanding right, I think they are showing layering. So would it be water buffulo horn?

tom hyle · 18th March 2005, 11:30 PM

It's probably cattle horn; there really aren't any water buffaloes around.
This style, commonly referred to as nimcha, is called saif (sayf) by its users. It is commonly thought of as Moorocan, but if found down the Swahili coast and in Arabia (where it may or may not originate). Based on the handle and especially the guard, this one appears to be from Mooroco or the Magreb. The blade may well be native, and in my limitted experiece, likely to be spring tempered.

Federico · 19th March 2005, 12:16 AM

Thanks for the input Tom, would cattle horn be the explanation for the greenish color? I gotta admit, Im used to carabao horn, and not familiar with other types. Do have any more characteristics for what to look for in cattle horn?

tom hyle · 19th March 2005, 12:45 AM

Basically it's the same as water buffaloe, but different in colour, varying from golden to various browns and orange and some dark greenish shades. It is often said that the paler green is from heating, and that the green horn available to N American cutlers in the early 20th was from Germany. In N American folk lore green horn is over heated (an explanation for the term greenhorn referring to an inexperienced person, such as would overheat the horn, for instance; I don't, BTW, buy this explanation for "greenhorn", but it is the common one), but it was clearly a deliberate affect with the German stuff. I don't know if it was supposed to affect the horn's qualities in some way, other than the heat making it flexible while hot (useful with "scales" but not so much with forming a "block" type handle), or if it was done to uniformize the look, much as occurs when the steam is forced into wood before it goes into the drying kiln in the modern industial process.

Conogre · 19th March 2005, 02:57 AM

Due to the maker's mark, I'd think it's a quality blade and from the true Nimchas that I've seen, I'd be surprised if it's a spring steel blade.....my own assesment is that that's a 100% battle sword that probably has many tales to tell, some on a par with the fiercest Moros.
Cattle horn carries a surprisingly wide range of quality and characteristics due to the fact that cattle themselves come in a wide variety of shapes and sizes.....the Massai cattle, for instance, often have horns longer than any Texas longhorn, some almost rivaling a carabao in length, and as you know, that's a BIG horn.
The really long horns are probably the only ones that would have enough solid area to make a hilt as thick as yours, Federico, with the majority hollow, and indeed, layered, much as are your own fingernails........basically horns are usually for the life of the animal, while antlers are shed and regrown for the rut each year (which makes some of the huge moose and elk racks truly amazing!) and usually found on males only, although there are exceptions.
Horn gives a very tough, durable material that's often mistaken for plastic, and, as Tom pointed out, it can be rendered much more maleable by heating it, plus it can be readily carved, cut and shaped lending itself to some beautifuwork in the hands of someone skilled in working with it.
A sometimes disadvantage is that it can peel in layers, particularly from a chip or cut, also if allowed to become thoroughly soaked, but this same characteristic can sometimes be an actual advantage, as the roughness allows for a better, non-slip grip whereas a highly polished hilt can become very slippery if sweaty or bloody.
Rhinocerous and giraffe horn, by the way, are particularly highly prized as sword/knife hilts because by being composed of compressed hair bundles, when it becomes wet it expands and almost "clings" to the hand, seeming to magickly "glue " itself in the grasp, a trait that makes it ideal.....in the former case, the suggested masculinity of the horn itself also has inherent talsimantic properties (even though horns are found on rhinos of BOTH sexes **grin**),to the point that even shavings are valued and put into potions and native medicines.
Take the attitude of a rhinocerous as well, notorious for attacking anything anytime anywhere and you have a potent magic material that has literally almost resulted in the extinction of the animal.
Whew.....sorry for getting carried away there....zoology sometimes does that to me! **grin**
Mike

Federico · 19th March 2005, 08:05 AM

Thanks Tom and Mike for all the information about horn. This was a real lucky find, as I am a cheapskate when it comes to non-PI pieces. The blade is real nice, and from its feel was definitely not a display piece. Ive never handled a single handed sword that was so big and so agile. Though the thickness of the spine makes me feel confident in its durability. One odd note, where the blade meets the guard, there are a couple of nails hammered upwards into the hilt, they almost seem like shims holding the blade into the hilt. I wonder if its due to the previous owner, as a kampilan purchased from the same collection has a very interesting re-constructed hilt done with nails as well. If its a secondary repair, it was done very well, as the blade feels very sturdy (the kampilan repair is done very well also, didnt even realize it was so severely shattered and rebuilt till I started to notice nail heads sticking out, though with their patina they blend very well with the wood).

tom hyle · 19th March 2005, 12:45 PM

I've encountered both nails and wooden wedges driven into tang holes to re-tighten hilts many times from many cultures on everthing from everyday tools to fancy weapons; I wouldn't read much of anything into it.
The thickness of the the blade is interesting in comination with its native look (mark, long ricassoe, narrow though wider than usual fuller that runs right up into the handle); I've owned two of these, and both had what I'm pretty sure are native blades, one showing considerable age and I wouldn't be surprised if it's c.18, and both were nicely sping tempered. I don't typically go around flexing other peoples' swords, so that's really the extent of my input on that issue.

Conogre · 19th March 2005, 09:41 PM

My apologies Tom....I misunderstood "springy" steel as opposed to "spring steel", which in African, Philippine and Indonesian weapons often means recently made from old automobile springs and very often, highly inferior.
Yes, for the weight and thickness of the spine there is an amazing amount of flexibility to the blade, although it's by no means a lightweight and would require being in very good shape to be used for any but short periods of time.
I think that these were primarily used as horseman's swords, weren't they?
If so, the added weight would have made for a devastating swing and cut when added to the speed of a charging steed that likely would have cut a swath through foot soldiers with ease.
Even on foot, the couple that I've seen were also capable of breaking the blade on a more lightly constructed with comparative ease, likewise all but a heavy spear shaft.
Mike

Federico · 21st March 2005, 05:41 AM

Hello Tom, so were these traditionally nailed in place, or do you think (of course I am not being fair since I have showed pics of the nails) that it was done later in life?

As for the flex, there does seem to be some flex, but I havent had the heart to really give it a good flexing, so I cant tell if it is just incidental due to the length of the blade, or if it is trully spring tempered. Though overall, despite the thick spine, it is a very light blade, easily manipulated with one hand. The fuller lightens the feel by a whole lot. One thing that has amazed me by this piece, is how well executed the fuller is. Even with modern tools, such precise fullering is difficult.

tom hyle · 21st March 2005, 06:28 AM

I often feel there are pics I'm not getting; I have pics of the sword and its hilt; none of the nails. the nails are almost certainly an after-market tightening. Now, a tightening I've seen routinely on these is that one or both of the lagnets it hammered down to the blade, and I've also seen little flat discs of metal used as wedges in this region.

Emanuel · 26th July 2005, 03:06 PM

Hello,
I have a question regarding nimcha -saif- longswords. As I understand from the numerous threads on this forum and from other sites -blade.japet- the nimcha comes in the short jambiya style variety and the long curved or straight variety. The differences between moroccan nimcha and arab saif seem to be the type of guard. The moroccan places strong emphasis on the quillons with right-angle hand guard while the arab prefers simpler crescent guard and curved hand-guard and lion's head pommel. My question has to do specifically with the moroccan nimcha and the quillons. In all examples I've seen, there is one quillon on one side and two on the other. Are there any genuine exceptions to this? I have recently seen examples -moroccan from all signs- with only one quillon on each side of the guard. Is this of any significance?

Thank you,
Manolo

18th March 2005, 07:54 PM	#1
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Now for that other sword, Nimcha? Ok, I dont specialize in non-Philippine weaponry. Ive tried to keep afloat with threads to broaden my horizons, but there are just so many swords so few brain cells left. Anyways up for comment is a Nimcha? Ok so if its not, let me know what it is. Anyways, it has a very hefty blade made for use. OAL 40" with a thick 1/4" spine at base. Nicely done fuller. When I was first shown a pic to see if I was interested, I thought the hilt was wood. However, it is a horn material of some kind. Very translucent, with a greenish hue. Sorry I tried and tried to get better pics of the hilt, but this was the best I could do with el camera cheapo. But if you can, any guess what kind of horn? If its water buffalo, Ive never seen color like this before. Attached Images

18th March 2005, 08:01 PM	#2
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Ok one more try at a close up of the hilt. Attached Images

19th March 2005, 12:45 AM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Basically it's the same as water buffaloe, but different in colour, varying from golden to various browns and orange and some dark greenish shades. It is often said that the paler green is from heating, and that the green horn available to N American cutlers in the early 20th was from Germany. In N American folk lore green horn is over heated (an explanation for the term greenhorn referring to an inexperienced person, such as would overheat the horn, for instance; I don't, BTW, buy this explanation for "greenhorn", but it is the common one), but it was clearly a deliberate affect with the German stuff. I don't know if it was supposed to affect the horn's qualities in some way, other than the heat making it flexible while hot (useful with "scales" but not so much with forming a "block" type handle), or if it was done to uniformize the look, much as occurs when the steam is forced into wood before it goes into the drying kiln in the modern industial process. Last edited by tom hyle; 19th March 2005 at 12:48 PM.

18th March 2005, 08:25 PM	#3
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	You're right, the camera doesn't cut it for close ups. Does the hilt feel "grainy" to you? Mine is rhinocerous horn, which is composed of compressed hair that's quite different from the normal horn more commonly encountered and not "layered" like the karotin based true horn....if those chips show layering, it's deffinitely true horn. While the nimcha originated in Morocco, from what I've been able to determine it is even more widespread than the kaskara or takouba and widely used throughout the arabic world. Unless I'm mistaken, those two concrete giant crossed swords that form an arch upon entering the Bagdad airport are nimchas, aren't they? Mike

18th March 2005, 08:57 PM	#4
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Mike thanks for the reply. I checked the cracks, and if I am understanding right, I think they are showing layering. So would it be water buffulo horn?

18th March 2005, 11:30 PM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	It's probably cattle horn; there really aren't any water buffaloes around. This style, commonly referred to as nimcha, is called saif (sayf) by its users. It is commonly thought of as Moorocan, but if found down the Swahili coast and in Arabia (where it may or may not originate). Based on the handle and especially the guard, this one appears to be from Mooroco or the Magreb. The blade may well be native, and in my limitted experiece, likely to be spring tempered.

19th March 2005, 12:16 AM	#6
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Thanks for the input Tom, would cattle horn be the explanation for the greenish color? I gotta admit, Im used to carabao horn, and not familiar with other types. Do have any more characteristics for what to look for in cattle horn?

19th March 2005, 02:57 AM	#8
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Due to the maker's mark, I'd think it's a quality blade and from the true Nimchas that I've seen, I'd be surprised if it's a spring steel blade.....my own assesment is that that's a 100% battle sword that probably has many tales to tell, some on a par with the fiercest Moros. Cattle horn carries a surprisingly wide range of quality and characteristics due to the fact that cattle themselves come in a wide variety of shapes and sizes.....the Massai cattle, for instance, often have horns longer than any Texas longhorn, some almost rivaling a carabao in length, and as you know, that's a BIG horn. The really long horns are probably the only ones that would have enough solid area to make a hilt as thick as yours, Federico, with the majority hollow, and indeed, layered, much as are your own fingernails........basically horns are usually for the life of the animal, while antlers are shed and regrown for the rut each year (which makes some of the huge moose and elk racks truly amazing!) and usually found on males only, although there are exceptions. Horn gives a very tough, durable material that's often mistaken for plastic, and, as Tom pointed out, it can be rendered much more maleable by heating it, plus it can be readily carved, cut and shaped lending itself to some beautifuwork in the hands of someone skilled in working with it. A sometimes disadvantage is that it can peel in layers, particularly from a chip or cut, also if allowed to become thoroughly soaked, but this same characteristic can sometimes be an actual advantage, as the roughness allows for a better, non-slip grip whereas a highly polished hilt can become very slippery if sweaty or bloody. Rhinocerous and giraffe horn, by the way, are particularly highly prized as sword/knife hilts because by being composed of compressed hair bundles, when it becomes wet it expands and almost "clings" to the hand, seeming to magickly "glue " itself in the grasp, a trait that makes it ideal.....in the former case, the suggested masculinity of the horn itself also has inherent talsimantic properties (even though horns are found on rhinos of BOTH sexes grin),to the point that even shavings are valued and put into potions and native medicines. Take the attitude of a rhinocerous as well, notorious for attacking anything anytime anywhere and you have a potent magic material that has literally almost resulted in the extinction of the animal. Whew.....sorry for getting carried away there....zoology sometimes does that to me! grin Mike

19th March 2005, 08:05 AM	#9
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Thanks Tom and Mike for all the information about horn. This was a real lucky find, as I am a cheapskate when it comes to non-PI pieces. The blade is real nice, and from its feel was definitely not a display piece. Ive never handled a single handed sword that was so big and so agile. Though the thickness of the spine makes me feel confident in its durability. One odd note, where the blade meets the guard, there are a couple of nails hammered upwards into the hilt, they almost seem like shims holding the blade into the hilt. I wonder if its due to the previous owner, as a kampilan purchased from the same collection has a very interesting re-constructed hilt done with nails as well. If its a secondary repair, it was done very well, as the blade feels very sturdy (the kampilan repair is done very well also, didnt even realize it was so severely shattered and rebuilt till I started to notice nail heads sticking out, though with their patina they blend very well with the wood).

19th March 2005, 12:45 PM	#10
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I've encountered both nails and wooden wedges driven into tang holes to re-tighten hilts many times from many cultures on everthing from everyday tools to fancy weapons; I wouldn't read much of anything into it. The thickness of the the blade is interesting in comination with its native look (mark, long ricassoe, narrow though wider than usual fuller that runs right up into the handle); I've owned two of these, and both had what I'm pretty sure are native blades, one showing considerable age and I wouldn't be surprised if it's c.18, and both were nicely sping tempered. I don't typically go around flexing other peoples' swords, so that's really the extent of my input on that issue.

19th March 2005, 09:41 PM	#11
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	My apologies Tom....I misunderstood "springy" steel as opposed to "spring steel", which in African, Philippine and Indonesian weapons often means recently made from old automobile springs and very often, highly inferior. Yes, for the weight and thickness of the spine there is an amazing amount of flexibility to the blade, although it's by no means a lightweight and would require being in very good shape to be used for any but short periods of time. I think that these were primarily used as horseman's swords, weren't they? If so, the added weight would have made for a devastating swing and cut when added to the speed of a charging steed that likely would have cut a swath through foot soldiers with ease. Even on foot, the couple that I've seen were also capable of breaking the blade on a more lightly constructed with comparative ease, likewise all but a heavy spear shaft. Mike

21st March 2005, 05:41 AM	#12
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Hello Tom, so were these traditionally nailed in place, or do you think (of course I am not being fair since I have showed pics of the nails) that it was done later in life? As for the flex, there does seem to be some flex, but I havent had the heart to really give it a good flexing, so I cant tell if it is just incidental due to the length of the blade, or if it is trully spring tempered. Though overall, despite the thick spine, it is a very light blade, easily manipulated with one hand. The fuller lightens the feel by a whole lot. One thing that has amazed me by this piece, is how well executed the fuller is. Even with modern tools, such precise fullering is difficult.

21st March 2005, 06:28 AM	#13
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I often feel there are pics I'm not getting; I have pics of the sword and its hilt; none of the nails. the nails are almost certainly an after-market tightening. Now, a tightening I've seen routinely on these is that one or both of the lagnets it hammered down to the blade, and I've also seen little flat discs of metal used as wedges in this region.

26th July 2005, 03:06 PM	#14
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello, I have a question regarding nimcha -saif- longswords. As I understand from the numerous threads on this forum and from other sites -blade.japet- the nimcha comes in the short jambiya style variety and the long curved or straight variety. The differences between moroccan nimcha and arab saif seem to be the type of guard. The moroccan places strong emphasis on the quillons with right-angle hand guard while the arab prefers simpler crescent guard and curved hand-guard and lion's head pommel. My question has to do specifically with the moroccan nimcha and the quillons. In all examples I've seen, there is one quillon on one side and two on the other. Are there any genuine exceptions to this? I have recently seen examples -moroccan from all signs- with only one quillon on each side of the guard. Is this of any significance? Thank you, Manolo