Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 15th February 2020, 08:31 AM   #1
carlos
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 678
Default Wavy dagger with barong hilt?

Hello!!
I just received my last piece.
I had doubts about buy or not this piece but finally I did.
The handle is horn with mother pearl .
The sheath is engraved in horn.
I think it could be from first S. XX.
Opinions are wellcome.
Thanks
Carlos
Attached Images
        
carlos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th February 2020, 10:13 AM   #2
Ian
Vikingsword Staff
 
Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 2,760
Default

Hi Carlos:

Thanks for showing this interesting knife. One might be forgiven for thinking this is a Moro knife with the wavy blade and a stylized kakatua pommel on the hilt. However, as you probably recognized, it is a knife from the Ilocano people of northern Luzon. The blade with its full length tang tells the story. There is a small ricasso with two incised lines running across the blade; the point of the blade resembles a small dagger and is somewhat longer than on Moro gunong; and the terminal luk of the blade is on the side corresponding to the back of the hilt (opposite to the orientation found on Moro kris). All of these features are consistent with wavy-bladed Ilocano knives. The presence of brass on the knife (ferrule and guard) and the scabbard (throat and chape) is also common for Ilocano pieces. The one glaring anomaly is the pommel. This is reminiscent of second half of the 20th C style of kakatua seen on pieces coming from the Lake Lanao region of Mindanao (i.e., from the Maranao people). How it ended up on an Ilocano piece is open to conjecture--maybe it is an Ilocano copy.

A very unusual knife. Thanks for showing it to us.

Ian.
Ian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th February 2020, 11:11 AM   #3
xasterix
Member
 
xasterix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 151
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian
Hi Carlos:

Thanks for showing this interesting knife. One might be forgiven for thinking this is a Moro knife with the wavy blade and a stylized kakatua pommel on the hilt. However, as you probably recognized, it is a knife from the Ilocano people of northern Luzon. The blade with its full length tang tells the story. There is a small ricasso with two incised lines running across the blade; the point of the blade resembles a small dagger and is somewhat longer than on Moro gunong; and the terminal luk of the blade is on the side corresponding to the back of the hilt (opposite to the orientation found on Moro kris). All of these features are consistent with wavy-bladed Ilocano knives. The presence of brass on the knife (ferrule and guard) and the scabbard (throat and chape) is also common for Ilocano pieces. The one glaring anomaly is the pommel. This is reminiscent of second half of the 20th C style of kakatua seen on pieces coming from the Lake Lanao region of Mindanao (i.e., from the Maranao people). How it ended up on an Ilocano piece is open to conjecture--maybe it is an Ilocano copy.

A very unusual knife. Thanks for showing it to us.

Ian.



Hullo sir Ian, I'd beg to differ and postulate instead that this dagger comes from Cavite =) The Laoag, Ilocos Norte wavy daggers have a different guard (knobby-circular on both ends). Additionally, the Ilocos Norte wavy daggers have leather scabbards that don't have metal accents on the throat and tip. The guard style and scabbard of this piece is consistent with Cavite-provenanced blades.
xasterix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th February 2020, 08:00 PM   #4
Ian
Vikingsword Staff
 
Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 2,760
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by xasterix
Hullo sir Ian, I'd beg to differ and postulate instead that this dagger comes from Cavite =) The Laoag, Ilocos Norte wavy daggers have a different guard (knobby-circular on both ends). Additionally, the Ilocos Norte wavy daggers have leather scabbards that don't have metal accents on the throat and tip. The guard style and scabbard of this piece is consistent with Cavite-provenanced blades.
Hullo Xasterix.

Thank you very much for the correction. I have been under the impression that wavy-bladed knives from Luzon were all Ilocano in origin. It's good to know that they were produced elsewhere in Luzon.

You mention provenanced pieces from Cavite. Can you provide pictures of some of these for our archives?

Regards,

Ian.
Ian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th February 2020, 08:57 PM   #5
xasterix
Member
 
xasterix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 151
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian
Hullo Xasterix.

Thank you very much for the correction. I have been under the impression that wavy-bladed knives from Luzon were all Ilocano in origin. It's good to know that they were produced elsewhere in Luzon.

You mention provenanced pieces from Cavite. Can you provide pictures of some of these for our archives?

Regards,

Ian.


Hullo again Ian, ashoka's Katipunan dagger is a good example, from this thread :
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11546

Also the Tejeros dagger :
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12750
xasterix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th February 2020, 09:34 PM   #6
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 6,358
Default

Not to be argumentative, but I have seen a Laoag wavy dagger with the 1st Republic emblem on it have a leather scabbard with a brass top and bottom chape on it which matched the brass quillions.
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th February 2020, 09:55 PM   #7
Ian
Vikingsword Staff
 
Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 2,760
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by xasterix
Hullo again Ian, ashoka's Katipunan dagger is a good example, from this thread :
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11546

Also the Tejeros dagger :
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12750
Hi Xasterix:

Thanks for the follow up and links.

The Ashoka knife is interesting, but I note the comment by Dimasalang in that thread, "... The wavy blade is obviously of Ilocos or south Philippines, so it is very odd to see this coming from Cavite ... this could just very well be a sword made by a Cavite smith who wanted to replicate a Ilocano blade." I agree with these comments indicating that wavy-bladed knives and swords were atypical of Cavite styles, and that an Ilocano influence was likely.

The Tejeros dagger in the second link has a straight, double-edged blade and does not seem to inform our discussion of possible wavy-bladed weapons from Cavite. The sheath for this one does have silver mounts at the throat and chape of the leather sheath. Indeed both this example and the one in the first link have leather sheaths, rather than horn (as for the item that is the topic of this thread). In this regard, I would point to some of the modern examples posted by migueldiaz of Ilocano knives showing leather sheaths with brass mounts at the the throat and chape.

Do you have other examples of wavy-bladed knives or swords from Cavite?

Regards,

Ian
Ian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th February 2020, 10:38 PM   #8
xasterix
Member
 
xasterix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 151
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian
Hi Xasterix:

Thanks for the follow up and links.

The Ashoka knife is interesting, but I note the comment by Dimasalang in that thread, "... The wavy blade is obviously of Ilocos or south Philippines, so it is very odd to see this coming from Cavite ... this could just very well be a sword made by a Cavite smith who wanted to replicate a Ilocano blade." I agree with these comments indicating that wavy-bladed knives and swords were atypical of Cavite styles, and that an Ilocano influence was likely.

The Tejeros dagger in the second link has a straight, double-edged blade and does not seem to inform our discussion of possible wavy-bladed weapons from Cavite. The sheath for this one does have silver mounts at the throat and chape of the leather sheath. Indeed both this example and the one in the first link have leather sheaths, rather than horn (as for the item that is the topic of this thread). In this regard, I would point to some of the modern examples posted by migueldiaz of Ilocano knives showing leather sheaths with brass mounts at the the throat and chape.

Do you have other examples of wavy-bladed knives or swords from Cavite?

Regards,

Ian


Hullo Ian,

I don't have more samples that I can show publicly, unfortunately. It's already conjecture on my part since the metal trimmings on the scabbard are atypical of Ilocos Norte wavy blades. Especially that guard.

If it helps, an elderly panday from Ilocos Sur has confirmed that the style of the dagger isn't consistent of their region. He is a 4th generation panday. He was once featured by Lorenz, whom I closely coordinate with.

Sadly, I can't get any feedback from modern Cavite pandays. None of them know the old blades anymore. It's fortunate that the Ilocos region still has old pandays who carry on their staple trad blades, and whom I can compare notes with.

The wavy blade isn't an exclusive feature of Ilocos. There are samples of wavy blades marked Taal. I even have a blueprint of sorts dated 1917 from Taal which clearly indicated the wavy blades as one of their blade profiles, among others. In fact if I would form an alternative conjecture that if not Cavite, then this piece may be from Taal.

I've been digging a lot into both old and new samples of Ilocos-region blades, as well as the rest of Luzon. As former members of this forum have pointed out - there's actually much less old blades that came from Ilocos. A lot of old blades have been misattributed to the Ilocos when in fact they're more consistent with blades from Southern Luzon, especially from lesser known areas. Where old samples failed to link a provenance, modern samples have provided solid clues and even positive hits.
xasterix is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 04:25 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.