VIEWS SOUGHT ON MODERN ETHNOGRAPHIC WEAPONS

VANDOO · 4th March 2014, 08:10 PM

I GOT OFF ON THIS TOPIC ON ANOTHER POST AND EXPRESSED MY VIEWS THERE BUT DECIDED IT WOULD BE MORE APPROPRIATE IN ITS OWN POST. I WOULD BE INTERESTED IN THE OPINIONS OF OTHER MEMBERS ON THIS TOPIC. I KNOW MOST OF US PREFER THE OLD WEAPONS FROM THE PERIOD WHERE THEY WERE IN USE FOR WAR OR HEADHUNTING. THEY PLAYED AN IMPORTANT PART IN THE SOCIETYS OF THOSE TIMES AND TO US THOSE ROUGH TIMES ARE CONSIDERED MORE ROMATIC AND AN AGE OF ADVENTURE. THE MORE RECENT ITEMS DO HAVE THEIR PLACE IN THE HISTORY OF THESE SOCIETYS TODAY SO SHOULD NOT BE IGNORED AS UNWORTHY. THEY DO HAVE A PLACE IN OUR STUDY OF THESE ITEMS AND THEIR CONTINUING EVOLUTION. SOME OF MY VIEWS ARE BELOW FOR YOUR COMMENTS SO PLEASE EXPRESS YOUR VIEWS AND ADD ANY OF YOUR THOUGHTS.

THE PROBLEMS IN RECENT ETHINOGRAPHIC WEAPONS PRODUCTION IS OFTEN NOT THE WORKMANSHIP BUT WHO DOES THE WORK AND WHERE IT IS DONE. FOR INSTANCE A JAPANESE KATANA MADE IN CHINA IS NOT A JAPANESE SWORD AND LEAVES OUT SOME IMPORTANT DETAILS IN ITS MANUFACTURE. A MORO SWORD MADE TODAY IN MINDANAO BY PHILIPPINOS WOULD BE PREFERRABLE TO ONE MADE IN BALI OR CHINA. THE ONE MADE IN BALI OR CHINA MIGHT BE MORE ATTRACTIVE AND WELL CARVED BUT IT CANCELES OUT ALL THE ETHINOGRAPHIC ORIGIN AND THROWS SUCH ITEMS INTO LIMBO. A NATIVE AMERICAN FEATHER HEADRESS, PIPE OR WAR CLUB MADE IN CHINA, INDIA, TAIWAN ,ECT WOULD ALSO GO INTO A LIMBO OR NON CULTURAL CONTEXT. TO COPY A FORM AS WE SEE IT WITHOUT LEARNING THE ORIGINAL TECKNIQUES OF THE ORIGINAL CULTURE PRODUCING IT DOES NOT CREATE A REPLICA BUT A FACIMILTY OF THE ITEM. THE FRANKLIN MINT PRODUCTIONS COME TO MIND WHERE ARE THEY MADE AND BY WHO?. IS THEIR ANY ETHINOGRAPHIC CONNECTION AT ALL?
THIS IS NOT CRITICISM OF THESE ITEMS BUT THOUGHTS I OFTEN HAVE WHEN SEEING THE VARIATIONS IN THE NEWER SWORDS. I HAVE SOME IN MY COLLECTION AND OFTEN WONDER WERE THEY MADE IN THE PHILIPPINES OR ELSWHERE. AND IF IN THE PHILIPPINES WERE THEY MADE BY MOROS?
SO IF I LIKE IT AND THE PRICE IS RIGHT I OFTEN BUY IT ANYWAY

Tim Simmons · 4th March 2014, 09:33 PM

For me it all depends on the intended user/owner function. I do not like tourist stuff. I do not like repro, just as boring as repro military swords. Sadly revival is usually a sort of repro kitsch. I have in collector terms modern items from the Amazon and Africa.

DaveS · 4th March 2014, 10:01 PM

I'm with Barry on this. As long as they are made in a traditional form and the quality is maintained, then I don't see any problem. Our collection is mostly comprised of older stuff with newer pieces here and there, and they all tend to blend in and complement each other. Only someone who is well versed in ethnographic weapons would ever even notice........Dave.

VANDOO · 4th March 2014, 10:41 PM

TIM MENTIONED THE AMAZON ITEMS AND THAT IS A GOOD EXAMPLE OF THINGS MADE IN THE TRADITIONAL WAY BY TRIBES IN MODERN TIMES. THIS STILL OCCURS AND HAS HAPPENED BEFORE IN OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD.
OFTEN MISSIONARIES OR GOVERNMENT AGENCYS PLAY A PART IN THIS BY ENCOURAGING THE PRODUCTION OF TRIBAL ITEMS AND ASSIST IN THEIR SALE. THE MONEY IS USUALLY USED TO HELP THE TRIBAL PEOPLE THRU DIFFICULT TIMES OF CHANGE.
THIS OFTEN LEADS TO CHANGES IN THE TRADITIONAL TRIBAL FORMS AND TRADITIONS DUE TO SUGGESTED NEW TECKNIQUES AND MARKETING STRATEGY. WAR CLUBS MAY BECOME SMALLER TO FIT IN SUITCASES DECORATION MAY CHANGE TO MAKE AN ITEM EASIER TO MAKE OR MORE EASILY SOLD. IN AUSTRALIA POKER WORK (WOOD BURNING DESIGNS) WAS INTRODUCED AS WELL AS DIFFERENT WAYS OF PAINTING WITH DIFFERENT MEDIUMS.
THESE ITEMS ARE ETHINOGRAPHIC EVEN THOUGH THE MARKET IS OFTEN AIMED AT TOURISTS. FORTUNATELY SOME ITEMS ARE MADE FOR COLLECTORS AS WELL AND AS MOST OLD EXAMPLES HAVE NOT SURVIVED AND THEY OFTEN NO LONGER HAVE A PLACE IN THE NEW SOCIETY THIS IS A GOOD THING.
I DO PREFER THE GOOD OLD ITEMS WITH A HISTORY BASED IN THOSE ADVENTUROUS TIMES. BUT OFTEN I HAVE TO SETTLE FOR THEIR MORE MODERN COUNTERPARTS.

DaveA · 6th March 2014, 04:21 AM

I am guided by the artisanship of the finished product. Quality is easy to discern. A well made, hand-made, beautiful and functional edged weapon in a traditional form is worthy of consideration by the collector.

A second consideration is who it is that does the making. It is vastly preferable for me to see a style and expert craftsmanship handed down over generations in a setting that is traditional for the item in question. To me, the linkage of the artifact to the history -- the story -- is very important.

If the item comes from a period of special historical significance, that is a third consideration that makes me sit up and pay attention!

Work of Art + Story + History.

My two cents!

Best,

David

Edmos1212 · 6th March 2014, 06:01 AM

Hi barry, i assume this thread originated from my thread right?

As a newbie, i really don't have enough competency yet to spot an antique 100 years old or older except if it is offered at a premuim price (sometimes i know that's not the case especially if its a scam). However, i make sure i buy my swords, modern ethno, as i now discovered here, from the people who did this based on tradition and culture. Hence, most of my swords are maranoan in origin since i only engaged in that tribe in the southern philippines. Although not an assurance that i won't be getting a "china-made" replica, it still adds to the peace of mind that the possibility of authenticity is high. Also, when i buy this from them, i usually asks about what this is called (sometimes they call it ina different name) and what it is use for and who uses it in their culture. This way, i also learned things sometimes not mentioned in any book.

VANDOO · 6th March 2014, 03:31 PM

YES I ORIGINALLY POSTED IT IN ONE OF YOUR POSTS.

I HAVE THOUGHT OF THIS BEFORE BUT NOT POSTED. I MOVED IT FROM YOUR POST BECAUSE I DID NOT WANT YOU TO TAKE IT AS CRITISIM OF YOUR COLLECTION. SOMETIMES WE OLDER COLLECTORS FORGET WHERE WE STARTED COLLECTING AND THAT THERE ARE OTHER REASONS AND WAYS TO COLLECT THAN OUR OWN.

IT IS UNLIKELY YOU WILL RUN INTO ITEMS FROM CHINA OR OTHER COUNTRIES LOCALLY IN MINDANAO. BUT YOU WILL SEE OUTSIDE INFLUENCES IN LOCAL WORK AS THE ARTIST MAY SEE SOMETHING HE LIKES FROM ANOTHER CULTURE OR FIND AN EASIER TECKNIUE FOR MAKEING HIS SWORDS AND KNIVES. I TRY TO ENCOURAGE THE SO CALLED NEWBIES AS THEY ARE THE FUTURE OF THIS FORUM AS WELL AS THE ONES WHO MAY TAKE OVER THE CARE OF OUR COLLECTIONS WHEN WE EXIT STAGE LEFT.

YOUR COLLECTION IS A GOOD REPRESENTATION OF THE WORK BEING DONE IN THE AREA TODAY AND A HUNDRED YEARS FROM NOW WILL BE A GOOD REFRENCE. PERHAPS THE ONLY REFRENCE AS WE USUALLY JUST DISCUSS THE OLDER ITEMS OVER AND OVER.

TO MY KNOWLEGE THERE IS NOT A BOOK OR REFRENCE ON POST WW2 PHILIPPINE SWORDS. THE STATE OF THE ART TODAY SHOULD NOT BE IGNORED.

A.alnakkas · 6th March 2014, 03:42 PM

Well, the sword tradition is alive in the gulf still. Swords are still made in KSA, Qatar and Bahrain. They are used in many occasions and are still part of costumes. To me, those swords are no different than the old ones. Infact, most are actually old blades rehilted with new material.

Tim Simmons · 6th March 2014, 05:24 PM

Thats good. Do not get me wrong. If I still had an interest in edged weapons I would be happy to buy real hunting and jungle knives and the like, from many places in the world. Where the real thing {so to speak, and you should all know what I mean} is still made for use. In this term use goes diplomatic gifts and other significant presentation pieces. Places like Nagaland regions Assam still make good work pieces. There is a difference from my earlier post.

spiral · 6th March 2014, 10:19 PM

I was thinking how to word my feelings without misunderstanding on this subject...

But Dave A, has already described my position & view most precisely.

Thank you.

Spiral

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveA

I am guided by the artisanship of the finished product. Quality is easy to discern. A well made, hand-made, beautiful and functional edged weapon in a traditional form is worthy of consideration by the collector.

A second consideration is who it is that does the making. It is vastly preferable for me to see a style and expert craftsmanship handed down over generations in a setting that is traditional for the item in question. To me, the linkage of the artifact to the history -- the story -- is very important.

If the item comes from a period of special historical significance, that is a third consideration that makes me sit up and pay attention!

Work of Art + Story + History.

My two cents!

Best,

David

DaveA · 7th March 2014, 08:01 PM

mross · 7th March 2014, 09:09 PM

From my perspective I buy the blade and not the story. Having said that I agree with DaveA's first sentance and stop there;
"I am guided by the artisanship of the finished product. Quality is easy to discern. A well made, hand-made, beautiful and functional edged weapon in a traditional form is worthy of consideration by the collector."

4th March 2014, 08:10 PM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	VIEWS SOUGHT ON MODERN ETHNOGRAPHIC WEAPONS I GOT OFF ON THIS TOPIC ON ANOTHER POST AND EXPRESSED MY VIEWS THERE BUT DECIDED IT WOULD BE MORE APPROPRIATE IN ITS OWN POST. I WOULD BE INTERESTED IN THE OPINIONS OF OTHER MEMBERS ON THIS TOPIC. I KNOW MOST OF US PREFER THE OLD WEAPONS FROM THE PERIOD WHERE THEY WERE IN USE FOR WAR OR HEADHUNTING. THEY PLAYED AN IMPORTANT PART IN THE SOCIETYS OF THOSE TIMES AND TO US THOSE ROUGH TIMES ARE CONSIDERED MORE ROMATIC AND AN AGE OF ADVENTURE. THE MORE RECENT ITEMS DO HAVE THEIR PLACE IN THE HISTORY OF THESE SOCIETYS TODAY SO SHOULD NOT BE IGNORED AS UNWORTHY. THEY DO HAVE A PLACE IN OUR STUDY OF THESE ITEMS AND THEIR CONTINUING EVOLUTION. SOME OF MY VIEWS ARE BELOW FOR YOUR COMMENTS SO PLEASE EXPRESS YOUR VIEWS AND ADD ANY OF YOUR THOUGHTS. THE PROBLEMS IN RECENT ETHINOGRAPHIC WEAPONS PRODUCTION IS OFTEN NOT THE WORKMANSHIP BUT WHO DOES THE WORK AND WHERE IT IS DONE. FOR INSTANCE A JAPANESE KATANA MADE IN CHINA IS NOT A JAPANESE SWORD AND LEAVES OUT SOME IMPORTANT DETAILS IN ITS MANUFACTURE. A MORO SWORD MADE TODAY IN MINDANAO BY PHILIPPINOS WOULD BE PREFERRABLE TO ONE MADE IN BALI OR CHINA. THE ONE MADE IN BALI OR CHINA MIGHT BE MORE ATTRACTIVE AND WELL CARVED BUT IT CANCELES OUT ALL THE ETHINOGRAPHIC ORIGIN AND THROWS SUCH ITEMS INTO LIMBO. A NATIVE AMERICAN FEATHER HEADRESS, PIPE OR WAR CLUB MADE IN CHINA, INDIA, TAIWAN ,ECT WOULD ALSO GO INTO A LIMBO OR NON CULTURAL CONTEXT. TO COPY A FORM AS WE SEE IT WITHOUT LEARNING THE ORIGINAL TECKNIQUES OF THE ORIGINAL CULTURE PRODUCING IT DOES NOT CREATE A REPLICA BUT A FACIMILTY OF THE ITEM. THE FRANKLIN MINT PRODUCTIONS COME TO MIND WHERE ARE THEY MADE AND BY WHO?. IS THEIR ANY ETHINOGRAPHIC CONNECTION AT ALL? THIS IS NOT CRITICISM OF THESE ITEMS BUT THOUGHTS I OFTEN HAVE WHEN SEEING THE VARIATIONS IN THE NEWER SWORDS. I HAVE SOME IN MY COLLECTION AND OFTEN WONDER WERE THEY MADE IN THE PHILIPPINES OR ELSWHERE. AND IF IN THE PHILIPPINES WERE THEY MADE BY MOROS? SO IF I LIKE IT AND THE PRICE IS RIGHT I OFTEN BUY IT ANYWAY Last edited by VANDOO; 4th March 2014 at 08:23 PM.

6th March 2014, 04:21 AM	#5
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 413	Modern ethnographic pieces I am guided by the artisanship of the finished product. Quality is easy to discern. A well made, hand-made, beautiful and functional edged weapon in a traditional form is worthy of consideration by the collector. A second consideration is who it is that does the making. It is vastly preferable for me to see a style and expert craftsmanship handed down over generations in a setting that is traditional for the item in question. To me, the linkage of the artifact to the history -- the story -- is very important. If the item comes from a period of special historical significance, that is a third consideration that makes me sit up and pay attention! Work of Art + Story + History. My two cents! Best, David

7th March 2014, 08:01 PM	#11
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 413	thanks

4th March 2014, 09:33 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	For me it all depends on the intended user/owner function. I do not like tourist stuff. I do not like repro, just as boring as repro military swords. Sadly revival is usually a sort of repro kitsch. I have in collector terms modern items from the Amazon and Africa.

4th March 2014, 10:01 PM	#3
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	I'm with Barry on this. As long as they are made in a traditional form and the quality is maintained, then I don't see any problem. Our collection is mostly comprised of older stuff with newer pieces here and there, and they all tend to blend in and complement each other. Only someone who is well versed in ethnographic weapons would ever even notice........Dave.

4th March 2014, 10:41 PM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	TIM MENTIONED THE AMAZON ITEMS AND THAT IS A GOOD EXAMPLE OF THINGS MADE IN THE TRADITIONAL WAY BY TRIBES IN MODERN TIMES. THIS STILL OCCURS AND HAS HAPPENED BEFORE IN OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD. OFTEN MISSIONARIES OR GOVERNMENT AGENCYS PLAY A PART IN THIS BY ENCOURAGING THE PRODUCTION OF TRIBAL ITEMS AND ASSIST IN THEIR SALE. THE MONEY IS USUALLY USED TO HELP THE TRIBAL PEOPLE THRU DIFFICULT TIMES OF CHANGE. THIS OFTEN LEADS TO CHANGES IN THE TRADITIONAL TRIBAL FORMS AND TRADITIONS DUE TO SUGGESTED NEW TECKNIQUES AND MARKETING STRATEGY. WAR CLUBS MAY BECOME SMALLER TO FIT IN SUITCASES DECORATION MAY CHANGE TO MAKE AN ITEM EASIER TO MAKE OR MORE EASILY SOLD. IN AUSTRALIA POKER WORK (WOOD BURNING DESIGNS) WAS INTRODUCED AS WELL AS DIFFERENT WAYS OF PAINTING WITH DIFFERENT MEDIUMS. THESE ITEMS ARE ETHINOGRAPHIC EVEN THOUGH THE MARKET IS OFTEN AIMED AT TOURISTS. FORTUNATELY SOME ITEMS ARE MADE FOR COLLECTORS AS WELL AND AS MOST OLD EXAMPLES HAVE NOT SURVIVED AND THEY OFTEN NO LONGER HAVE A PLACE IN THE NEW SOCIETY THIS IS A GOOD THING. I DO PREFER THE GOOD OLD ITEMS WITH A HISTORY BASED IN THOSE ADVENTUROUS TIMES. BUT OFTEN I HAVE TO SETTLE FOR THEIR MORE MODERN COUNTERPARTS.

6th March 2014, 06:01 AM	#6
Edmos1212 Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 23	Hi barry, i assume this thread originated from my thread right? As a newbie, i really don't have enough competency yet to spot an antique 100 years old or older except if it is offered at a premuim price (sometimes i know that's not the case especially if its a scam). However, i make sure i buy my swords, modern ethno, as i now discovered here, from the people who did this based on tradition and culture. Hence, most of my swords are maranoan in origin since i only engaged in that tribe in the southern philippines. Although not an assurance that i won't be getting a "china-made" replica, it still adds to the peace of mind that the possibility of authenticity is high. Also, when i buy this from them, i usually asks about what this is called (sometimes they call it ina different name) and what it is use for and who uses it in their culture. This way, i also learned things sometimes not mentioned in any book.

6th March 2014, 03:31 PM	#7
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	YES I ORIGINALLY POSTED IT IN ONE OF YOUR POSTS. I HAVE THOUGHT OF THIS BEFORE BUT NOT POSTED. I MOVED IT FROM YOUR POST BECAUSE I DID NOT WANT YOU TO TAKE IT AS CRITISIM OF YOUR COLLECTION. SOMETIMES WE OLDER COLLECTORS FORGET WHERE WE STARTED COLLECTING AND THAT THERE ARE OTHER REASONS AND WAYS TO COLLECT THAN OUR OWN. IT IS UNLIKELY YOU WILL RUN INTO ITEMS FROM CHINA OR OTHER COUNTRIES LOCALLY IN MINDANAO. BUT YOU WILL SEE OUTSIDE INFLUENCES IN LOCAL WORK AS THE ARTIST MAY SEE SOMETHING HE LIKES FROM ANOTHER CULTURE OR FIND AN EASIER TECKNIUE FOR MAKEING HIS SWORDS AND KNIVES. I TRY TO ENCOURAGE THE SO CALLED NEWBIES AS THEY ARE THE FUTURE OF THIS FORUM AS WELL AS THE ONES WHO MAY TAKE OVER THE CARE OF OUR COLLECTIONS WHEN WE EXIT STAGE LEFT. YOUR COLLECTION IS A GOOD REPRESENTATION OF THE WORK BEING DONE IN THE AREA TODAY AND A HUNDRED YEARS FROM NOW WILL BE A GOOD REFRENCE. PERHAPS THE ONLY REFRENCE AS WE USUALLY JUST DISCUSS THE OLDER ITEMS OVER AND OVER. TO MY KNOWLEGE THERE IS NOT A BOOK OR REFRENCE ON POST WW2 PHILIPPINE SWORDS. THE STATE OF THE ART TODAY SHOULD NOT BE IGNORED.

6th March 2014, 03:42 PM	#8
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,338	Well, the sword tradition is alive in the gulf still. Swords are still made in KSA, Qatar and Bahrain. They are used in many occasions and are still part of costumes. To me, those swords are no different than the old ones. Infact, most are actually old blades rehilted with new material.

6th March 2014, 05:24 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Thats good. Do not get me wrong. If I still had an interest in edged weapons I would be happy to buy real hunting and jungle knives and the like, from many places in the world. Where the real thing {so to speak, and you should all know what I mean} is still made for use. In this term use goes diplomatic gifts and other significant presentation pieces. Places like Nagaland regions Assam still make good work pieces. There is a difference from my earlier post.

7th March 2014, 09:09 PM	#12
mross Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 478	From my perspective I buy the blade and not the story. Having said that I agree with DaveA's first sentance and stop there; "I am guided by the artisanship of the finished product. Quality is easy to discern. A well made, hand-made, beautiful and functional edged weapon in a traditional form is worthy of consideration by the collector."