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Old 20th February 2018, 12:50 PM   #1
Athanase
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Default Sumatran pedang for comment.

Hello,

Here is my birthday present received a few days ago.
It has some points in common (at the handle) with a pedang of palembang hinterlands posted a few days ago, but the shape of the blade is very different.
The blade is very wide at its base (1,5cm) but especially it has a Kembang Kacang and a very nice pamor that looks like pamor "Udan mas" of keris.
There is some remaining red paint at the base of the floral part of the handle.
The sheath seems a little more recent than the rest of the sword.
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Old 20th February 2018, 04:19 PM   #2
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Hello Séverin,

Quote:
Here is my birthday present received a few days ago.

Congrats, that's a neat catch! And my best birthday wishes!


Quote:
It has some points in common (at the handle) with a pedang of palembang hinterlands posted a few days ago, but the shape of the blade is very different.

I'm fairly sure this it not Rawas since the pommel shape is not matching. Highly carved Rawas hilts look different, too (cp. the attached pic from the other thread ).

Quote:
The blade is very wide at its base (1,5cm) but especially it has a Kembang Kacang and a very nice pamor that looks like pamor "Udan mas" of keris.

This pedang variant has usually been associated with southern Sumatra, possibly Palembang.

In a recent thread, I believed at least a subset might originate from northern Malaya (Kelantan/Pattani); there seem to be some other leads, too. I'm still researching this topic. BTW, mine example has complex surface-manipulated pamor, too!


Quote:
There is some remaining red paint at the base of the floral part of the handle.

I reckon the darker grip part wasn't painted (braided wire work partly missing)? Do you have any examples of the typical Palembang lacquer work? How does this painted pommel compare with the former?

Regards,
Kai
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Old 20th February 2018, 04:37 PM   #3
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Hello Severin,

just my feeling and like this a guess, I think it's from Sunda but can't be sure. I've seen similar blade shapes, special with kembang kacang from Sunda. And I've never seen pamor udan mas by weapons from Sumatra or Malaysia. Very nice sword by the way!!

Best regards,
Detlef
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Old 20th February 2018, 05:02 PM   #4
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Hello Detlef,

Yes, Sunda is one of the leads I'm looking into - maybe Amuk Murugul would be kind enough to contribute some insights?

Regards,
Kai
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Old 20th February 2018, 08:35 PM   #5
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A very nice Pedang.

I have a Palembang Keris with quite similar Udan Mas style pamor, except for it has an Odo2, so not three indentations in a row.

The way how cutting edge becomes thick just before the first "tooth" (which I am used to call Ri Pandan) of Jenggot on that Pedang (if I see it correctly, another shot of exactly that feature would be helpful) is typical for region around Palembang.
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Old 21st February 2018, 09:32 AM   #6
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"Kai : - I reckon the darker grip part wasn't painted (braided wire work partly missing)? Do you have any examples of the typical Palembang lacquer work? How does this painted pommel compare with the former?"


Yes it misses a part of the wire (2 wires of iron / silver? / other ?? twisted).
Yes only the part under the "flower" is paint, not the floral motif.
Sheath doesn't seem painted but rather covered with a colored varnish. The wood itself seems naturally already a little colored.
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Old 21st February 2018, 09:50 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
Hello Severin,

just my feeling and like this a guess, I think it's from Sunda but can't be sure. I've seen similar blade shapes, special with kembang kacang from Sunda. And I've never seen pamor udan mas by weapons from Sumatra or Malaysia. Very nice sword by the way!!

Best regards,
Detlef


I never seen Sunda sword whith kembang kacang, do you have examples to show?
Until now I had only seen kacang kembang on Sumatra's sabers.
I have another Sumatra sword with a kacang kembang (very badly done) and a label indicating Aceh as coming from, but strangely its handle is reminding the Batak handle
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Old 21st February 2018, 04:58 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Athanase
I never seen Sunda sword whith kembang kacang, do you have examples to show?


Hello Severin,

sadly I am not able to post pictures from this sword since it's not mine but the owner is a member of this forum, I will give the member a hint, maybe he will post pictures from his sword.

Best regards,
Detlef
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Old 21st February 2018, 05:28 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
..sadly I am not able to post pictures from this sword since it's not mine but the owner is a member of this forum, I will give the member a hint, maybe he will post pictures from his sword.


After contacting my friend I am allowed to show pictures from the blade, the pictures are from the auction. It's for sure a Sunda sword.
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Old 22nd February 2018, 01:01 PM   #10
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Thank you Detlef!!
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Old 22nd February 2018, 02:25 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Athanase
Thank you Detlef!!


You are welcome!
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Old 24th February 2018, 06:48 AM   #12
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A gorgeous sword! Learned a lot from this discussion too
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Old 24th February 2018, 08:08 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kai
Hello Detlef,

Yes, Sunda is one of the leads I'm looking into - maybe Amuk Murugul would be kind enough to contribute some insights?

Regards,
Kai

Hullo everybody,

Apologies for the late response.
I was unaware until alerted to this post.

My cursory guesstimate:
Pedang Toebles (cut-thrust).
Blade: made according to eastern Soenda (Galoeh) protocol.
Handle: stylised (vegetal) Makara/Naga-Paksi.
Pamor: not an issue under traditional Soenda values; 'whatever comes out of the melting-pot’, not built-in design.
Probably late-18thC. - early-19thC Tjaroeban/Tjirebon.
Hope this helps.

Best,
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Old 25th February 2018, 08:41 PM   #14
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Hullo AM,

Thanks for your comments!


Quote:
Pamor: not an issue under traditional Soenda values; 'whatever comes out of the melting-pot’, not built-in design.

However, this is clearly not a random pamor: this pattern is achieved only by intentional surface manipulation (i. e. boring holes and flattening the billet).

There also seem to be other examples of Sunda blades with "designed" pamor types. Are these just exceptions?

Regards,
Kai
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Old 25th February 2018, 08:59 PM   #15
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The feature I wrote about isn't found on Javanese Keris, also not Sunda or Cirebon Keris.

I am not 100% sure (but quite sure) the Pedang has it, to be sure a pic exactly of this feature is needed.
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Old 25th February 2018, 09:36 PM   #16
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Hello Gustav,

Quote:
The feature I wrote about isn't found on Javanese Keris, also not Sunda or Cirebon Keris.

Interesting thought!

Regards,
Kai

Last edited by kai : 26th February 2018 at 06:07 AM. Reason: lapsus: additional comments retracted
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Old 25th February 2018, 10:12 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustav
A very nice Pedang.

I have a Palembang Keris with quite similar Udan Mas style pamor, except for it has an Odo2, so not three indentations in a row.


Hello Gustav,
I don't understand this sentence what do you mean by "Odo2" ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustav
The way how cutting edge becomes thick just before the first "tooth" (which I am used to call Ri Pandan) of Jenggot on that Pedang (if I see it correctly, another shot of exactly that feature would be helpful) is typical for region around Palembang.


Sorry but I don't understand what point of view you want for the picture. Profile? The profile, the view of the face of the cutting edge?
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Old 26th February 2018, 02:47 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kai
Hullo AM,

Thanks for your comments!



However, this is clearly not a random pamor: this pattern is achieved only by intentional surface manipulation (i. e. boring holes and flattening the billet).

There also seem to be other examples of Sunda blades with "designed" pamor types. Are these just exceptions?

Regards,
Kai

Hullo Kai,

The view on pamor depends on what school one follows and also on how much of a purist one is. Generally, for the Soenda who were focused on spirituality, the end pamor was incidental, a gift from the gods and accepted as such. There is always the possibility that some people may have designed the pamor themselves.
Also, remember that the Soenda came under Mataram in the 17thC. Thus began 'pan-Djawa-ism' (the Tjaroeban/Tjirebon court became very much Djawa-oriented ; also Banten, but to a lesser degree; this is still so today). This was the time that Mataram awarded kerises as 'medals',resulting in greater creativity in keris-making and pamor-design.

To me, a non-random pamor tends to point more towards a post-16thC period. The quality of the blades also seems to have suffered somewhat as it approached modern times.

Best,

Last edited by Amuk Murugul : 26th February 2018 at 02:49 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 26th February 2018, 06:44 AM   #19
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Hullo AM,

Thanks for your response!


Quote:
The view on pamor depends on what school one follows and also on how much of a purist one is. Generally, for the Soenda who were focused on spirituality, the end pamor was incidental, a gift from the gods and accepted as such.

Yup, I reckon that's the usual approach from a client's perspective.


Quote:
Also, remember that the Soenda came under Mataram in the 17thC.

Seems the same influence can be seen in southern Sumatra, too...


Quote:
To me, a non-random pamor tends to point more towards a post-16thC period.

Do you possibly have any Sunda examples with complex pamor from these earlier periods including Majapahit that you could kindly share? These seem to be very rare, indeed!


Quote:
The quality of the blades also seems to have suffered somewhat as it approached modern times.

This seems to be a general trend throughout the archipelago (certainly with exceptions and different time-frames). Is it possible to delimit any corresponding periods for western Java?

BTW, any chance that the relatively early availability of European steel contributed to this? Any indications that there developed a split between "tool" blades from monosteel and more traditionally forged pusaka blades?

Regards,
Kai

Last edited by kai : 26th February 2018 at 06:56 AM.
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Old 26th February 2018, 06:52 AM   #20
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Hello Séverin,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustav
I have a Palembang Keris with quite similar Udan Mas style pamor, except for it has an Odo2, so not three indentations in a row.

Gustav's keris has a ridge (ada-ada) along the center of the blade - because of this design, the dots are along the sides only...

Regards,
Kai
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Old 1st March 2018, 07:49 AM   #21
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Hello,
I did the photos but I left in Italy (Rome) in a few hours I did not have time to transfer them to the computer, cut out, and resize to post them.
I will post them Tuesday night.
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Old 13th March 2018, 07:54 PM   #22
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With one week late, the pictures :
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Old 13th March 2018, 07:59 PM   #23
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Hello Séverin,

what a beauty! Can you post pictures in this quality from the whole sword?

Regards,
Detlef
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Old 14th March 2018, 11:27 AM   #24
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Séverin,

thank you for the pictures.

I attach two pictures of a Palembang Keris. They show the typical "thick" Greneng and Jenggot, the edge loosing its sharpness just before Ri Pandan (that's why we more often see a complete Greneng surviving on Palembang Keris) and the Udan Mas-like Pamor treatment.

The Jenggot on you Pedang also is "thick" - till now I haven't see a Sundanese or Cirebon or Javanese Keris with this feature, and my main interest is Keris.
Maybe we could encounter this feature on a Pedang from Sunda - I don't know.
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Old 14th March 2018, 11:33 AM   #25
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And a picture from the now defunct UBB Forum, which even better shows what I mean:
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