How to determine if blade has bloodstains??

philkid · 4th September 2005, 08:32 AM

Hi guys, I just wanna know how do you determine if a blade has blood stains? Can you know just by looking at it? Thanks.

Battara · 4th September 2005, 09:45 AM

Well (being a deep subject and all

) one sign of blood stains for me is when the area in question is pitted and blackened. Human blood is quite acidic and especially reacts with anything with iron in it (like steel). When blood is on a piece of steel for a while, it will not only etch but eat into the metal, oxidizing it black after a while. What may also help is if the area in question looks to have droplets forming a direction or spray. Since blood smears upon contact with a smooth surface, it will do so on a blade surface until it sits there and digs into the metal. I have a kampilan that has the blood spray in a direction where it cut. I have etched the piece to bring out the lamination and still cannot erase the blood stains because they have corroded deep into the blade, pitting the blade.

Justin · 4th September 2005, 05:24 PM

This seems to be a topic that comes up from time to time,heres my 2 cents.

Swords were far too valuable to let blood sit on them long enough for there to be a 'stain',furthermore if you etch a blade in ACID you can easily remove the patination with some extra fine steel wool.

I seriously doubt there are many swords out there that have actual blood stains on them,and I also doubt that there is any definate way to prove whether a sword has ever had any blood on it at all.

Collecters get far too caught up in these things,Im content with believeing that most of the older swords/knives/daggers that I own were used in battle,people have never had a problem finding reasons to kill,and it was much easier to get away with prior to modern forensics.

fearn · 4th September 2005, 09:30 PM

Hi Justin,

Given modern molecular technology, it would be possible to find human DNA on a sword with little difficulty--if it's there to be detected (i.e. the blade hasn't been cleaned recently.

That said, in most cases, I would suspect that any human DNA found on a blade would belong to its current owner. Remember, we shed hair and skin flakes fairly constantly, and some of that will get stuck on any sword kept out for display or used (for practice or whatever).

You could also try swabbing the inside of a scabbard, or cutting it apart for samples, if you want to get carried away. You might find traces there.

Given the cost of such tests, I think this is a waste of money and time. But if you're curious enough...

F

Battara · 5th September 2005, 06:18 AM

The thing is if you leave blood on steel for any length of time, it will already react to the metal. Many of the bladed weapons that were used against American troops and thus brought back by American troops had blood on them for quite a while before being picked off the battlefield and lightly wiped off as souvenoirs. What may accelerate the process is the heat and climate of the Philippines.

erlikhan · 5th September 2005, 08:27 AM

Gorgeous,gold-silver decorated,carved blades were not used in battles.They were too expensive for that. Thats why many of them dont have nicks at all.They were just for show. Battle ones were very simple. If those ones are considered, most of them were used and had blood stains once or more in their lifetime for sure and were cleaned as soon as possible. It doesnt has to stain the blade. Once I wounded my hand quite deeply by a sword while cleaning it, and some blood stayed on the blade for almost 24 hours till I had oppurtunity to clean it. Now there is no sign of this battle

on it.

zamboanga · 5th September 2005, 08:49 AM

would animal blood have the same effect on a blade as human blood?

some moro blades are also used to slaughter cattle. the word "sumbali" (from padsumbalin) is, i understand, describes a manner how a cow is to be properly slaughtered following local culture, e.g., a single blow as much as possible.

Battara · 5th September 2005, 09:20 AM

Yes, animal blood would have the same effect since it would have hemogloben in it. I think the context with which I am referencing is that found in several pieces that US GIs have brought back that had human blood on them that lay in the hot sun and heat for a while in the battlefield. On the other hand, I had sweet tomato pulp on a high carbon steel knife sti there for a few hours accidently and it etched the blade. As far as human blood on your knife, erlikan, I would say it depends on the percentage of carbon in the steel, and the above conditions. A note: Moro steel had more carbon than our stainless steel used in cutlery. I must add, however, I have not tried cutting beef or tomatos with my kampilan yet.

Spunjer · 5th September 2005, 01:57 PM

i believe these were blood splatters that was left to dry on this kris. the angles of the etch are very consistent with a slash. one the other side, about 9 inches to the point is black, which appears to be this side was facing the ground (therefore no spray mark). again, IMO, this kris was left out in the open for a while before it was picked up. by this time the blood already etched thru the blade. just my opinion

nechesh · 5th September 2005, 02:15 PM

Spunjer, i remember when you showed this blade the first time. It seems unlikely to me that blood would lay so equally along the entire length of the blade like that. It was my impression that this patterning was some kind of forging technique.

Spunjer · 5th September 2005, 02:37 PM

hi nechesh,
i would bring this piece today in your neck of the woods, but i hate to be sorrounded by mason police when this thing triggers the metal detector while going in kings island, lol (btw, this is my third day in a row going to that place, kids been dragging me...

..)

the blackened area are actually pitted in the blade, giving it a rough texture, making me think otherwise. again, just my opinion...

Justin · 5th September 2005, 03:38 PM

I have to agree with nechesh ,the kris looks like its just showing its lamination,{I have a Moro spearhead with similar although much more faint lamination},left on the battle field or not,I think it would take hours and hours of soaking in blood before you might possibly have a permanant stain.

I have soaked blades in HYDROCHLORIC ACID to etch them and still the etch comes off with ease ,I just dont think blood in potent enough to leave a mark on the blade for years afterward.

Aurangzeb · 5th September 2005, 05:05 PM

Hello all!

I have a Sudanese dagger from the Mahdiest revolt that was almost certainly used, although worn it has no stains or much pitting. I don't think blood whould be let on that long to be let to leave a stain. If I remember my science teachers lecture on blood a black light should show it up but if it's been cleaned many times I don't think it will work. Just my two cents!

Mark...

Robert · 5th September 2005, 05:38 PM

A Philippine dagger with what looks like the same staining. I believe these stains were made by someone who wraped the knife for storage or shipping and the cloth or paper it was wrapped with got wet. After being this way for an extended period of time the pattern you see is the result. Leaving a blade in a wet leather scabbard for a long period of time can do the same because of the acids used in tanning the leather. IMHO Blood being left on a blade would have to stay damp without being washed away for quite a few days if not weeks or even longer to cause this type of staining to a blade.

Robert

Tim Simmons · 5th September 2005, 06:33 PM

The last time I cut myself, the blood did not smoke or penetrate metal floors

It is not the sort of stuff one leaves lying around. Nice romantic idea though. Traces might be detectable on leather scabbards when you think about it. Tim

RSWORD · 5th September 2005, 08:24 PM

In my opinion, one does find the occasional blade that does show evidence of blood pitting. Blood pitting is typically deep cratery pits that still have a deep blackish coloration deep in those pits because blood is very corrosive. Take a simple fingerprint. If you do a poor job of wiping off a blade but you leave that one fingerprint check it out in a few weeks. It will be rusting. Just from a fingerprint. If someone just lightly wiped off blood and stored away for awhile it will create deep cratery pits. My friend Philip Tom has polished hundreds of blades over the years, several of which have been ones I owned. He once talked with me about an Arabian Saif of mine that had deep cratery pitting near the tip. He was convinced it was pitting that was the result of blood. He also referenced me to an excellent book which discusses different levels and types of patination on metal but it escapes me at the moment. I will have to dig through my notes and see if I can find the book he had referenced.

Robert · 5th September 2005, 09:48 PM

I think that very few if any stains on edged weapons are actually caused by blood. As Justin said "Collecters get far too caught up in these things,Im content with believeing that most of the older swords/knives/daggers that I own were used in battle,people have never had a problem finding reasons to kill,and it was much easier to get away with prior to modern forensics". I totaly agree with Justin on this. But what sounds better and more exciting when showing to or telling someone about one of your favorite weapons, that the stains were caused by it being bloodied in battle or that it was poorly taken care of. Most people I think would like to believe the first.

4th September 2005, 08:32 AM	#1
philkid Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Philippines Posts: 52	How to determine if blade has bloodstains?? Hi guys, I just wanna know how do you determine if a blade has blood stains? Can you know just by looking at it? Thanks.

5th September 2005, 01:57 PM	#9
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	i believe these were blood splatters that was left to dry on this kris. the angles of the etch are very consistent with a slash. one the other side, about 9 inches to the point is black, which appears to be this side was facing the ground (therefore no spray mark). again, IMO, this kris was left out in the open for a while before it was picked up. by this time the blood already etched thru the blade. just my opinion Attached Images

5th September 2005, 02:37 PM	#11
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	hi nechesh, i would bring this piece today in your neck of the woods, but i hate to be sorrounded by mason police when this thing triggers the metal detector while going in kings island, lol (btw, this is my third day in a row going to that place, kids been dragging me.....) the blackened area are actually pitted in the blade, giving it a rough texture, making me think otherwise. again, just my opinion...

5th September 2005, 03:38 PM	#12
Justin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 175	I have to agree with nechesh ,the kris looks like its just showing its lamination,{I have a Moro spearhead with similar although much more faint lamination},left on the battle field or not,I think it would take hours and hours of soaking in blood before you might possibly have a permanant stain. I have soaked blades in HYDROCHLORIC ACID to etch them and still the etch comes off with ease ,I just dont think blood in potent enough to leave a mark on the blade for years afterward. Last edited by Justin; 5th September 2005 at 04:03 PM.

5th September 2005, 05:38 PM	#14
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	A Philippine dagger with what looks like the same staining. I believe these stains were made by someone who wraped the knife for storage or shipping and the cloth or paper it was wrapped with got wet. After being this way for an extended period of time the pattern you see is the result. Leaving a blade in a wet leather scabbard for a long period of time can do the same because of the acids used in tanning the leather. IMHO Blood being left on a blade would have to stay damp without being washed away for quite a few days if not weeks or even longer to cause this type of staining to a blade. Robert Attached Images Last edited by Robert Coleman; 5th September 2005 at 09:22 PM.

4th September 2005, 09:45 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Well (being a deep subject and all ) one sign of blood stains for me is when the area in question is pitted and blackened. Human blood is quite acidic and especially reacts with anything with iron in it (like steel). When blood is on a piece of steel for a while, it will not only etch but eat into the metal, oxidizing it black after a while. What may also help is if the area in question looks to have droplets forming a direction or spray. Since blood smears upon contact with a smooth surface, it will do so on a blade surface until it sits there and digs into the metal. I have a kampilan that has the blood spray in a direction where it cut. I have etched the piece to bring out the lamination and still cannot erase the blood stains because they have corroded deep into the blade, pitting the blade.

4th September 2005, 05:24 PM	#3
Justin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 175	This seems to be a topic that comes up from time to time,heres my 2 cents. Swords were far too valuable to let blood sit on them long enough for there to be a 'stain',furthermore if you etch a blade in ACID you can easily remove the patination with some extra fine steel wool. I seriously doubt there are many swords out there that have actual blood stains on them,and I also doubt that there is any definate way to prove whether a sword has ever had any blood on it at all. Collecters get far too caught up in these things,Im content with believeing that most of the older swords/knives/daggers that I own were used in battle,people have never had a problem finding reasons to kill,and it was much easier to get away with prior to modern forensics.

4th September 2005, 09:30 PM	#4
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Justin, Given modern molecular technology, it would be possible to find human DNA on a sword with little difficulty--if it's there to be detected (i.e. the blade hasn't been cleaned recently. That said, in most cases, I would suspect that any human DNA found on a blade would belong to its current owner. Remember, we shed hair and skin flakes fairly constantly, and some of that will get stuck on any sword kept out for display or used (for practice or whatever). You could also try swabbing the inside of a scabbard, or cutting it apart for samples, if you want to get carried away. You might find traces there. Given the cost of such tests, I think this is a waste of money and time. But if you're curious enough... F

5th September 2005, 06:18 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	The thing is if you leave blood on steel for any length of time, it will already react to the metal. Many of the bladed weapons that were used against American troops and thus brought back by American troops had blood on them for quite a while before being picked off the battlefield and lightly wiped off as souvenoirs. What may accelerate the process is the heat and climate of the Philippines.

5th September 2005, 08:27 AM	#6
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Gorgeous,gold-silver decorated,carved blades were not used in battles.They were too expensive for that. Thats why many of them dont have nicks at all.They were just for show. Battle ones were very simple. If those ones are considered, most of them were used and had blood stains once or more in their lifetime for sure and were cleaned as soon as possible. It doesnt has to stain the blade. Once I wounded my hand quite deeply by a sword while cleaning it, and some blood stayed on the blade for almost 24 hours till I had oppurtunity to clean it. Now there is no sign of this battle on it.

5th September 2005, 08:49 AM	#7
zamboanga Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: zamboanga city, philippines Posts: 132	would animal blood have the same effect on a blade as human blood? some moro blades are also used to slaughter cattle. the word "sumbali" (from padsumbalin) is, i understand, describes a manner how a cow is to be properly slaughtered following local culture, e.g., a single blow as much as possible.

5th September 2005, 09:20 AM	#8
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Yes, animal blood would have the same effect since it would have hemogloben in it. I think the context with which I am referencing is that found in several pieces that US GIs have brought back that had human blood on them that lay in the hot sun and heat for a while in the battlefield. On the other hand, I had sweet tomato pulp on a high carbon steel knife sti there for a few hours accidently and it etched the blade. As far as human blood on your knife, erlikan, I would say it depends on the percentage of carbon in the steel, and the above conditions. A note: Moro steel had more carbon than our stainless steel used in cutlery. I must add, however, I have not tried cutting beef or tomatos with my kampilan yet.

5th September 2005, 02:15 PM	#10
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Spunjer, i remember when you showed this blade the first time. It seems unlikely to me that blood would lay so equally along the entire length of the blade like that. It was my impression that this patterning was some kind of forging technique.

5th September 2005, 05:05 PM	#13
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hello all! I have a Sudanese dagger from the Mahdiest revolt that was almost certainly used, although worn it has no stains or much pitting. I don't think blood whould be let on that long to be let to leave a stain. If I remember my science teachers lecture on blood a black light should show it up but if it's been cleaned many times I don't think it will work. Just my two cents! Mark...

5th September 2005, 06:33 PM	#15
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	The last time I cut myself, the blood did not smoke or penetrate metal floors It is not the sort of stuff one leaves lying around. Nice romantic idea though. Traces might be detectable on leather scabbards when you think about it. Tim

5th September 2005, 08:24 PM	#16
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	In my opinion, one does find the occasional blade that does show evidence of blood pitting. Blood pitting is typically deep cratery pits that still have a deep blackish coloration deep in those pits because blood is very corrosive. Take a simple fingerprint. If you do a poor job of wiping off a blade but you leave that one fingerprint check it out in a few weeks. It will be rusting. Just from a fingerprint. If someone just lightly wiped off blood and stored away for awhile it will create deep cratery pits. My friend Philip Tom has polished hundreds of blades over the years, several of which have been ones I owned. He once talked with me about an Arabian Saif of mine that had deep cratery pitting near the tip. He was convinced it was pitting that was the result of blood. He also referenced me to an excellent book which discusses different levels and types of patination on metal but it escapes me at the moment. I will have to dig through my notes and see if I can find the book he had referenced.

5th September 2005, 09:48 PM	#17
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	I think that very few if any stains on edged weapons are actually caused by blood. As Justin said "Collecters get far too caught up in these things,Im content with believeing that most of the older swords/knives/daggers that I own were used in battle,people have never had a problem finding reasons to kill,and it was much easier to get away with prior to modern forensics". I totaly agree with Justin on this. But what sounds better and more exciting when showing to or telling someone about one of your favorite weapons, that the stains were caused by it being bloodied in battle or that it was poorly taken care of. Most people I think would like to believe the first.