Review of "Arms and Armour from Iran" by M. Khorasani - Page 2

B.I · 16th November 2006, 01:10 PM

with my very limited knowledge of persian history, i am under the impression that persia was never truly conquered at any point in its history.
is this correct?
if so, then i am surprised at the lack of historical pieces pre-17thC and post 10thC in the museums. the museum pieces, whilst attractive, are not of higher quality than in many private collections outside persia.
is there a reason for this? (genuine question - am i missing something within the country's history that accounts for this lack of early steel weapons?)
there are many weapons in existance that cover this period, and i was hoping to see some early pieces still in persia (by early, i mean medieval and not before).

kirill, i think that your review was honest and thorough. whether others agree or disagree is meaningless, for it is a personal opinion and one offered up for discussion.
besides, after reading your review, manola has decided to buy the book. how can this possibly be a bad thing? the more people that buy the book, the more chance others will be published.

Andrew · 16th November 2006, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frequent

i dont understand why the moderators are not controlling this negative words here. i thought ths was a friendly place to go to.

First, because the moderators are all in the USA, and I was asleep when the post was made.

Second, because negative words will not be "controlled" here. We will step in when the discussion gets off-topic, rude or uncivil.

Rivkin · 16th November 2006, 04:26 PM

By memory (can be imprecise):
Persia I think was completely conquered many times. Greeks, Arabs, Il-Khanid Mongols, Amir Timur... There would always some part remain where Iranian culture would preservere more, and some that were probably semi-independent, but the problem also is what do we understand by Iran, meaning what kind of boundaries do we accept as Iranian.

Iran de facto did not exist as a country for a very, very long time until Shah Ismail conquered most of it and established his Shia state.

Concerning things that happened to Persia in the mean time. Amir Timur organized massive deportations of all craftsmen to Bukhara and Samarkand, his capital. His favorite winter headquarters was Karabagh.
His favorite policy to resisting cities was to surround them, check the documents of exiting people, allowing craftsmen, sayed (i.e. "descendants" of Mohammed) and other "needed" people to proceed with deportation to Bukhara, then split the city into sectors, making each unit responsible for certain sector and requiring it to bring certain number of heads (calculated according to old maps and accounts on pre-war population). Then the heads would be deposited into huge piramids.
Not really much survived after these policies.

Tim Simmons · 16th November 2006, 04:43 PM

That is an interesting point. I have often wondered what weapons the nomadic peoples of Persia would have armed themselves with. Being rather keen on tribal rugs, from this I would think most of these weapons would not be the lavishly decorated ones. To the east of Persia the tribal weapons must have been the same as Afghan. People like Baluch, Timuri/Taimuri.

Rivkin · 16th November 2006, 04:50 PM

I hoped to see a lot about Steppe swords in this book, from Kalachuri to mongol weapons. However it seems that Iranian collections are not much better than the Western ones

. It talks about crucible steel, mentions kalachuri, shows a tiny picture of seljuk sabre, and we arrive to shamshirs. There are a lot of Shamshirs in this book, hordes of them, but the information on pre-shamshir swords of Islamic period is relatively scarse.

tsubame1 · 16th November 2006, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

Personalities aside, where can I find a copy of the book?

Searched Google and can't find any for sale. Since I know nothing about Iranian weapons it might be a good start for me.

Artzi buys any book about these items for resale. i'm sure that you'll be able to buy it by him very soon. He can't lose such a good occasion.

tsubame1 · 16th November 2006, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivkin

Please also understand that I am obviously not an authority in the field, so me reviewing this book goes against the well established policy when the review is performed by someone of a higher status than the author. Please understand that I may be wrong, and I review this book as myself, and not in any official function. I also apologize that since I have not spent too much time writing this review (and cited the sources mostly by memory), I do not offer an extensive analysis of the book.

Rivkin, you'r too humble.
On the contrary, it seems a review made by a professional. Or more then one.
My compliments, have you made it all alone or somebody helped you with references ?

Thanks for Sharing.

B.I · 16th November 2006, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivkin

I hoped to see a lot about Steppe swords in this book, from Kalachuri to mongol weapons. However it seems that Iranian collections are not much better than the Western ones

. It talks about crucible steel, mentions kalachuri, shows a tiny picture of seljuk sabre, and we arrive to shamshirs. There are a lot of Shamshirs in this book, hordes of them, but the information on pre-shamshir swords of Islamic period is relatively scarse.

the seljuk sabre is exceptionally important, and is arguably one of the most important early persian swords, given its fantastic condition. i know the present owner of this sword, and he wasnt too happy about its inclusion (done without his knowledge, hence the poor image). all the information included was taken from a publication by the previous owner, and much research has been done on it since.
i urge anyone in, or going to italy to go to the basilica. in the treasury room (ground floor) there is a persian dagger which they claim (with no real knowledge of the subject) to be of the 14thC. whether this date is accurate or not i dont know, as it is not my field. but, it is definately old and pre-dates the 16thC. the room is very dark, and photography is prohibited. i do have a few images somewhere, but they are poor and done quickly with no flash. as far as i know, the dagger has not been published. david alexander dismissed the 14thC date, but couldnt offer me an alternative. but, i have seen him get it wrong before, so the dagger is definately up for someone to research further!

tsubame1 · 16th November 2006, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.I

i urge anyone in, or going to italy to go to the basilica.

Sorry for asking, B.I., but here in Italy we've more "Basilica" that empty vodka bottles in Russia. Which one you refer to ? S.Pietro in Rome ?
I'm interested due to my capacity to go everywhere as far as Catholic Churches goes even to take pictures and handling material, or making somebody else allowed to make it.
It would be interesting to have further information.

B.I · 16th November 2006, 07:04 PM

hi tsubame,
sorry, i meant to write venice, italy!!
i am curious of your capacity to open the church doors. what is it you do?
a good image of this dagger would be fantatic, even if just to prove the date wrong and dismiss it. the room was extremely dark and the dagger was behind glass, which made it almost impossible to scrutinise properly.

tsubame1 · 16th November 2006, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.I

hi tsubame,
sorry, i meant to write venice, italy!!

San Marco ! I'm in Venice 4/5 times each year, but I always saw at the
"pala d'oro" with "Cristo Pantocratore" the few times I was in the Basilica. Didn't noticed that dagger. I always was much more interested in the Palazzo ducale armory and ca' Pesaro japanese collection.
A good piece to dig in. The treasure is usually well documented on where and when it was sacked by the venetian armies. But this might mean noting
about the real age of the item. Seem i'll need help of a specialist in easter weaponry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.I

i am curious of your capacity to open the church doors. what is it you do?

My mother maiden name is "Casaroli" and was born in Castel San Giovanni, Piacenza. Google "Cardinal Casaroli"

You know, the two oldest lobbies in the world are jews and chatolic priests.
In venice you can find both. You definitively have to go to visit "Ghetto vecio" (the old ghetto). One of the least known and most beautiful sites in Venice.

B.I · 16th November 2006, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsubame1

My mother maiden name is "Casaroli" and was born in Castel San Giovanni, Piacenza. Google "Cardinal Casaroli"

You know, the two oldest lobbies in the world are jews and chatolic priests.
In venice you can find both. You definitively have to go to visit "Ghetto vecio" (the old ghetto). One of the least known and most beautiful sites in Venice.

please dont!!
my girlfriend has constantly reminded me of a fantastic jewish restaurant that we stumbled across in the old quarter. unfortunately, we had just eaten, and we had no time to go back. everytime we walk past even a bagel shop, she mentions it. i am glad she doesnt read this forum!!
your relation seems to have been quite a guy!! the treasures he must have seen having access to the vatican.
i strongly recommend the civic museum on the other end of the square (across from the basilica). they have a couple of room of captured turkish weapons of outstanding quality and rarity. the museum is not known, and the weapons not mentioned in any guide.
please do try to get images of the dagger, as it would be a wonderful piece to talk about here.

tsubame1 · 17th November 2006, 10:49 AM

Just in front of S. Marco ? Should be the Museo Correr.
The responsible for all museums in Venice has her office there and you have to fill a form and have her signature on it to take pics from everywhere. I've made it several times for the Ca' Pesaro japanese collection but never sen the pieces you're talking about. So sad that Museo Correr has no catalogues on such items.

B.I · 17th November 2006, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsubame1

Just in front of S. Marco ? Should be the Museo Correr.
The responsible for all museums in Venice has her office there and you have to fill a form and have her signature on it to take pics from everywhere. I've made it several times for the Ca' Pesaro japanese collection but never sen the pieces you're talking about. So sad that Museo Correr has no catalogues on such items.

it was indeed the museo correr. search the forum for a post called 'hidden room 2' for images i took. found out that the basilica dagger has been published twice, but not in english. will find the references next week.
kirill, apologies for diverting and hijacking your post.

Rivkin · 18th November 2006, 09:54 PM

1. I did offer someone to coauthor the review, but we had a much too violent disagreement on whether "iron" is a variation of "iran" (as he believes), or, as per Abaev, Oranevsky :") and others one must consider an autochtonous origin. However, I did email prior to the publication a copy of this review to some forumite, mostly those who liked the book.

2. I have been interested in the subject for a while, so I did collect some references. I am however not a specialist (sorry for repeating), so I did expect that for example Dr. Feuerbach, who actually _did_ work with alanic weapons would find some error in my statements.

3. Actually one of the biggest challenges of working with weapons is that most of the publications, outside of some very old weapons for which one should check the archeology publications, occur often in God forsaken journals. Actually it is very hard to get good information, and I actually have far better references, but I did not include them in the review since they are virtually unobtainable (for example, there is a very good Ph.D. thesis by Nakov) and my use of them for reviewing purpose would be unethical.

4. Concerning weapons in general, we know too little right now. Iranian shamshirs as a type where made virtually in the whole middle east and attributing them can be hard to impossible, I have seen 2-6 pages full of references dedicated to a _single_ controversial sword, simply citing different opinions - what area is this "rumi" style is most characteristic for, what kind of koftgari technique is used (for example in Dagestan they like the koftgari to be elevated with respect to the sword's surface, i.e. the gold writing sticks out of plane). There are a lot of weapons that we know from textual information, but don't know how they look like - for example there is a lot of evidence that in 1600-1730's Karabagh (Azerbaijan/Armenia) was a huge center of arms production of swords and guns by local armenians, something like 3000 muskets per year. The weapons made where distinctive types of shamshirs and straight broadswords (as described by Ivan Karapet and others). Now do we know how these weapons look like, i.e. which of current "iranian shamshirs" come from this area ? Or, for example, can one make some sort of a conclusion from the statement that wide appearance of stamped marks on blades made in Tbilisi, practise quite characteristic of Northern Iran/Azaerbaijan coincides with a start of a massive migration of Armenians from Northern Iran to Tbilisi ?
Or, for example, Arakel Davrizhezi writes that in the time of Abbas II the sharpest and biggest shamshirs were designed to chop lamb's head with a single stroke, and was used by jewish butchers, and therefore if it was discovered in a house of a muslim, such person would be assumed to be a secret jew. Again, what are the shamshirs he talks about ?

tsubame1 · 18th November 2006, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivkin

and my use of them for reviewing purpose would be unethical.

I fully understand you.
Ethics is of paramount importance in avoiding a lawsuit by the original writer.
Of the Ph D thesis, of course...
Well, many good words, but just words only to me. As you, I'm not an expert too, and I am not able to make cross references with the information you give.
Thanks anyway for the hard work.

Ann Feuerbach · 23rd November 2006, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivkin

Actually it is very hard to get good information, and I actually have far better references, but I did not include them in the review since they are virtually unobtainable (for example, there is a very good Ph.D. thesis by Nakov) and my use of them for reviewing purpose would be unethical.

I have been very busy with conferences, publication, teaching, birthdays, Thanksgiving and a horrible cold on top, so I have not been able to digest your review. However, please include all references you know of, I have access to Interlibrary loan and can often get very obscure articles, even if I have not time to read them (or get them translated).

Rivkin · 23rd November 2006, 05:26 PM

Well, it would not be ethical to Mr. Khorasani to blame him for not reading some obscue things.

Concerning the literature - you probably know it far better than I do. If you are interested in the obscure stuff, it is:
Kochkarov Umar Usufovich, Ph.D. dissertation, "Vooruzhenie srednevekovogo vsadnika ....",
Nakov Felix Ruslanovich, Ph.D. dissertation, "Cherkesskoe (Adygskoe) Klinkovoe oruzhie"
Shaviev N. A., "Istoriya i kultura kabardinzev ....", Nalchik, 1968
"Sbornik materialov po archeologii Adygei", Maikop, 1961
Concerning review papers I have not mentioned before, for example A.V. Komar, O. V. Sukhobokov, "Vooruzhenie i voennoe delo Khazarskogo Kaganata", Vostochnoevropeisky Archeologichesky Zhurnal, 3 (2000).

and so and so on. But again, you probably know so many more references, especially on early alanic/khazarian things.

Ann Feuerbach · 23rd November 2006, 05:31 PM

Thank you. For my Alani etc info I ask my good friend Irina Arzhansteva, I want her to translate and publish her PhD (Moscow?). It was on the sword styles of Central Asia, she knows so much and has published so little on it.

Rivkin · 23rd November 2006, 05:39 PM

In my experience getting Ph.D. dissertation copied from Russia is a royal pain until you establish a contact with a secretary/someone working in the library or so. You send them money and they scan it for you; working with department chairs or other high ranking people unfortunately does not work (at least did not work for me). It is a pity that there is a sea of works on early sabres (how can I not mention Gorelik, Kirpichnikov or literally dozens of others), but how much is translated ? Close to zero - a few works here, a few works there. I have approximately half of Kaminsky's review papers (unfortunately these ones are _really_ short reviews) scanned, so I can easily put them here (I am sure he would not mind). I do have some of this Ph.D. thesises also in a scanned version, however I would warn that some of them are not of top quality. They have a lot of new information, but you have to distill it from 200 pages.

Rivkin · 23rd November 2006, 06:38 PM

Btw is there a chanse of getting Dr. Arzhntzeva's thesis ? I promise my best behavior

. I am slightly confused - is it on alans or on central asian swords/sabres, or on both ? What I mean - alans of which time period are in this thesis ?

Ian · 24th November 2006, 04:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivkin

I have approximately half of Kaminsky's review papers (unfortunately these ones are _really_ short reviews) scanned, so I can easily put them here (I am sure he would not mind). I do have some of this Ph.D. thesises also in a scanned version, however I would warn that some of them are not of top quality. They have a lot of new information, but you have to distill it from 200 pages.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ann Fuerbach

For my Alani etc info I ask my good friend Irina Arzhansteva, I want her to translate and publish her PhD (Moscow?). It was on the sword styles of Central Asia, she knows so much and has published so little on it.

Rivkin and Dr Ann:

I would suggest sending Lee Jones a PM about possibly posting scanned works here that are difficult to find. There may be some legal issues of copyright, etc. that need to be worked out. I can't speak for Lee, however I think he would give your idea some serious consideration.

I also believe that we have a couple of native Russian speakers who are active members of this forum, and they might be able/willing to assist in translating key passages.

Without hijacking the present thread, could I suggest that we take this interesting idea to a new thread.

ian.

Rivkin · 3rd December 2006, 04:35 AM

Since no argument was presented, I will try to conclude this story as I see it.

The study of weapons is a somewhat off-mainstread topic. The study of non-japanese and non-military patterns also requires navigation among the sea of rumors, incomplete information, old and new fakes and semi-fakes. Little should be presented as "truth", and the same research can be seen quite differently by different people.

Today, since reading Manoucher's book has influenced me to read a lot of papers and to speak with many people in the past two weeks, I think differently about my review than I did so mere two weeks ago. I would've soften some of the criticism in this review, but I would've also put a bigger accent on some other "issues". My conclusion remains the same - it is a good book, and the author did a good job distilling the information concerning Persian weapons from other books, while combining it with an extremely valuable opportunity for us to see the weapons from Iranian collections. I am thankful for this. However the research provided in this book is questionable. I do recommend it to everyone who is interested in Persian weaponry.

P.S. Just to give you some idea concerning how hard it is to collaborate with other researchers to get any reliable information, one of high level employees at a very good museum, which I visited many times in my life, has answered me publicly that he does not collaborate with "americanos-pedophilos".

tsubame1 · 3rd December 2006, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivkin

P.S. Just to give you some idea concerning how hard it is to collaborate with other researchers to get any reliable information, one of high level employees at a very good museum, which I visited many times in my life, has answered me publicly that he does not collaborate with "americanos-pedophilos".

Don't bother about what said such a racist fool. They are everywhere...
In Italy we say "the mother of morons is always pregnant..."

Mark · 3rd December 2006, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivkin

P.S. Just to give you some idea concerning how hard it is to collaborate with other researchers to get any reliable information, one of high level employees at a very good museum, which I visited many times in my life, has answered me publicly that he does not collaborate with "americanos-pedophilos".

I had an experience similar in effect, though very different in substance. I contacted a very well-known academic authority on Southeast Asian archeology, asking if he could recommend reference sources for certain aspects of my research on dha. I received this politely-worded reply:

"As a matter of principle, and in the light of the appalling looting of prehistoric sites in Southeast Asia, I do not correspond with or assist collectors."

No room for argument there, especially since I can't argue with the principle.

It does make it hard to get ahold of the more obscure reference material in the academic literature, though.

23rd November 2006, 06:38 PM	#51
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Btw is there a chanse of getting Dr. Arzhntzeva's thesis ? I promise my best behavior . I am slightly confused - is it on alans or on central asian swords/sabres, or on both ? What I mean - alans of which time period are in this thesis ? Last edited by Rivkin; 23rd November 2006 at 09:36 PM.

3rd December 2006, 04:35 AM	#53
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	2 weeks after Since no argument was presented, I will try to conclude this story as I see it. The study of weapons is a somewhat off-mainstread topic. The study of non-japanese and non-military patterns also requires navigation among the sea of rumors, incomplete information, old and new fakes and semi-fakes. Little should be presented as "truth", and the same research can be seen quite differently by different people. Today, since reading Manoucher's book has influenced me to read a lot of papers and to speak with many people in the past two weeks, I think differently about my review than I did so mere two weeks ago. I would've soften some of the criticism in this review, but I would've also put a bigger accent on some other "issues". My conclusion remains the same - it is a good book, and the author did a good job distilling the information concerning Persian weapons from other books, while combining it with an extremely valuable opportunity for us to see the weapons from Iranian collections. I am thankful for this. However the research provided in this book is questionable. I do recommend it to everyone who is interested in Persian weaponry. P.S. Just to give you some idea concerning how hard it is to collaborate with other researchers to get any reliable information, one of high level employees at a very good museum, which I visited many times in my life, has answered me publicly that he does not collaborate with "americanos-pedophilos".

16th November 2006, 01:10 PM	#31
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	with my very limited knowledge of persian history, i am under the impression that persia was never truly conquered at any point in its history. is this correct? if so, then i am surprised at the lack of historical pieces pre-17thC and post 10thC in the museums. the museum pieces, whilst attractive, are not of higher quality than in many private collections outside persia. is there a reason for this? (genuine question - am i missing something within the country's history that accounts for this lack of early steel weapons?) there are many weapons in existance that cover this period, and i was hoping to see some early pieces still in persia (by early, i mean medieval and not before). kirill, i think that your review was honest and thorough. whether others agree or disagree is meaningless, for it is a personal opinion and one offered up for discussion. besides, after reading your review, manola has decided to buy the book. how can this possibly be a bad thing? the more people that buy the book, the more chance others will be published.

16th November 2006, 04:26 PM	#33
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	By memory (can be imprecise): Persia I think was completely conquered many times. Greeks, Arabs, Il-Khanid Mongols, Amir Timur... There would always some part remain where Iranian culture would preservere more, and some that were probably semi-independent, but the problem also is what do we understand by Iran, meaning what kind of boundaries do we accept as Iranian. Iran de facto did not exist as a country for a very, very long time until Shah Ismail conquered most of it and established his Shia state. Concerning things that happened to Persia in the mean time. Amir Timur organized massive deportations of all craftsmen to Bukhara and Samarkand, his capital. His favorite winter headquarters was Karabagh. His favorite policy to resisting cities was to surround them, check the documents of exiting people, allowing craftsmen, sayed (i.e. "descendants" of Mohammed) and other "needed" people to proceed with deportation to Bukhara, then split the city into sectors, making each unit responsible for certain sector and requiring it to bring certain number of heads (calculated according to old maps and accounts on pre-war population). Then the heads would be deposited into huge piramids. Not really much survived after these policies.

16th November 2006, 04:43 PM	#34
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	That is an interesting point. I have often wondered what weapons the nomadic peoples of Persia would have armed themselves with. Being rather keen on tribal rugs, from this I would think most of these weapons would not be the lavishly decorated ones. To the east of Persia the tribal weapons must have been the same as Afghan. People like Baluch, Timuri/Taimuri.

16th November 2006, 04:50 PM	#35
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	I hoped to see a lot about Steppe swords in this book, from Kalachuri to mongol weapons. However it seems that Iranian collections are not much better than the Western ones . It talks about crucible steel, mentions kalachuri, shows a tiny picture of seljuk sabre, and we arrive to shamshirs. There are a lot of Shamshirs in this book, hordes of them, but the information on pre-shamshir swords of Islamic period is relatively scarse.

16th November 2006, 07:04 PM	#40
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi tsubame, sorry, i meant to write venice, italy!! i am curious of your capacity to open the church doors. what is it you do? a good image of this dagger would be fantatic, even if just to prove the date wrong and dismiss it. the room was extremely dark and the dagger was behind glass, which made it almost impossible to scrutinise properly.

17th November 2006, 10:49 AM	#43
tsubame1 Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Magenta, Northern Italy Posts: 123	Just in front of S. Marco ? Should be the Museo Correr. The responsible for all museums in Venice has her office there and you have to fill a form and have her signature on it to take pics from everywhere. I've made it several times for the Ca' Pesaro japanese collection but never sen the pieces you're talking about. So sad that Museo Correr has no catalogues on such items.

18th November 2006, 09:54 PM	#45
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	1. I did offer someone to coauthor the review, but we had a much too violent disagreement on whether "iron" is a variation of "iran" (as he believes), or, as per Abaev, Oranevsky :") and others one must consider an autochtonous origin. However, I did email prior to the publication a copy of this review to some forumite, mostly those who liked the book. 2. I have been interested in the subject for a while, so I did collect some references. I am however not a specialist (sorry for repeating), so I did expect that for example Dr. Feuerbach, who actually _did_ work with alanic weapons would find some error in my statements. 3. Actually one of the biggest challenges of working with weapons is that most of the publications, outside of some very old weapons for which one should check the archeology publications, occur often in God forsaken journals. Actually it is very hard to get good information, and I actually have far better references, but I did not include them in the review since they are virtually unobtainable (for example, there is a very good Ph.D. thesis by Nakov) and my use of them for reviewing purpose would be unethical. 4. Concerning weapons in general, we know too little right now. Iranian shamshirs as a type where made virtually in the whole middle east and attributing them can be hard to impossible, I have seen 2-6 pages full of references dedicated to a _single_ controversial sword, simply citing different opinions - what area is this "rumi" style is most characteristic for, what kind of koftgari technique is used (for example in Dagestan they like the koftgari to be elevated with respect to the sword's surface, i.e. the gold writing sticks out of plane). There are a lot of weapons that we know from textual information, but don't know how they look like - for example there is a lot of evidence that in 1600-1730's Karabagh (Azerbaijan/Armenia) was a huge center of arms production of swords and guns by local armenians, something like 3000 muskets per year. The weapons made where distinctive types of shamshirs and straight broadswords (as described by Ivan Karapet and others). Now do we know how these weapons look like, i.e. which of current "iranian shamshirs" come from this area ? Or, for example, can one make some sort of a conclusion from the statement that wide appearance of stamped marks on blades made in Tbilisi, practise quite characteristic of Northern Iran/Azaerbaijan coincides with a start of a massive migration of Armenians from Northern Iran to Tbilisi ? Or, for example, Arakel Davrizhezi writes that in the time of Abbas II the sharpest and biggest shamshirs were designed to chop lamb's head with a single stroke, and was used by jewish butchers, and therefore if it was discovered in a house of a muslim, such person would be assumed to be a secret jew. Again, what are the shamshirs he talks about ?

23rd November 2006, 05:26 PM	#48
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Well, it would not be ethical to Mr. Khorasani to blame him for not reading some obscue things. Concerning the literature - you probably know it far better than I do. If you are interested in the obscure stuff, it is: Kochkarov Umar Usufovich, Ph.D. dissertation, "Vooruzhenie srednevekovogo vsadnika ....", Nakov Felix Ruslanovich, Ph.D. dissertation, "Cherkesskoe (Adygskoe) Klinkovoe oruzhie" Shaviev N. A., "Istoriya i kultura kabardinzev ....", Nalchik, 1968 "Sbornik materialov po archeologii Adygei", Maikop, 1961 Concerning review papers I have not mentioned before, for example A.V. Komar, O. V. Sukhobokov, "Vooruzhenie i voennoe delo Khazarskogo Kaganata", Vostochnoevropeisky Archeologichesky Zhurnal, 3 (2000). and so and so on. But again, you probably know so many more references, especially on early alanic/khazarian things.

23rd November 2006, 05:31 PM	#49
Ann Feuerbach Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 133	Thank you. For my Alani etc info I ask my good friend Irina Arzhansteva, I want her to translate and publish her PhD (Moscow?). It was on the sword styles of Central Asia, she knows so much and has published so little on it.

23rd November 2006, 05:39 PM	#50
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	In my experience getting Ph.D. dissertation copied from Russia is a royal pain until you establish a contact with a secretary/someone working in the library or so. You send them money and they scan it for you; working with department chairs or other high ranking people unfortunately does not work (at least did not work for me). It is a pity that there is a sea of works on early sabres (how can I not mention Gorelik, Kirpichnikov or literally dozens of others), but how much is translated ? Close to zero - a few works here, a few works there. I have approximately half of Kaminsky's review papers (unfortunately these ones are _really_ short reviews) scanned, so I can easily put them here (I am sure he would not mind). I do have some of this Ph.D. thesises also in a scanned version, however I would warn that some of them are not of top quality. They have a lot of new information, but you have to distill it from 200 pages.