Oldest Known European Metal Tool ? The Start of it all

ChrisPer · 28th August 2016, 03:21 PM

Interesting discussion, thank you.
Has the object been subjected to spark spectroscopic analysis? I would expect native copper to have a clear compositional signature.

Silver Shield · 28th August 2016, 05:16 PM

ChrisPer thank you for your question , that's a good one . I never had a doubt about composition , as I have seen other items including bronze and brass in similar states of decay and have always found that the migration of copper and its salts in these alloys even if strongly present on the surface always is very thin in its depth. So usually with just a scratch test you get through it and you get the yellow metal alloy color if your test the object. Now I never said it was not heated or partially melted but melting (Cu 1085 C ) leaves slag which gets smooth surfaces being composed of associated minerals attached or inclusionally in the mass . If encapsulated it leaves cavities with rounded or smooth surfaces in the cavities ,until distorted by percussion ect. . The voids and cavities in this object have sharp angular profiles , generally. Now copper as found in nature is always pure while such metals as Gold and Silver always have at least trace amounts of each other as found in natural occurring mass .That's why the first coins where Electrum .
The object has no value , it has no provenance other than" found around there" . The deep patina is from a marine environment , it was found in the Black Sea area of Bulgaria . I scratch tested it , its copper . It is only a curiosity ,and is only a representative piece with the properties expected of the 1st metal tools , but its form makes no sense other than used as a hand held tool ie a "Hand Axe" , at least that after years of thought and input have suggested . From field work over many decades, my experience , well my rather percussion damaged mind , says it copper . But as I know, I could always be wrong as it is the Human Condition.

ChrisPer · 31st August 2016, 09:23 AM

Very interesting, thank you Silver Shield.

JamesKelly · 25th October 2016, 10:30 PM

With respect to chemical analysis, the word "spark" gives me the shivers.

There is a process, known as X-ray fluorescent analysis which may be applied with absolutely no marking of the metal. I am retired Director of Technology from a specialty metal supplier, Rolled Alloys. They have a wonderful device in the lab, at least the one I used was called: Innov-X Systems Model #XT-245S spectrometer. I was able to test the brass/bronze on a number of 19th century firearms, and the odd old coin with this device. Somewhere at the U of Az someone must have a similar machine.

If you do not already know this, NEVER leave your artifact with a lab technician to analyze.

You must have your personal body present at all times. Otherwise he may well cut it up or melt it to give you an even Better analyses. Learnt this at first job, Black & Decker. A salesman for B&D collected Civil War items, and came in with a short artillery sword, might even have been Confederate. Wanted us metallurgists to take a look at it. My boss had a wonderful sense of humor, he planned to cut the blade in half, then mount & polish as specimen for metallography. We were able to talk him out of this approach, therefore avoiding potential homicide.

Lab guys have absolutely NO sense of humor, nor can they appreciate ancient things. This can hold true for archaeology students as well, in my experience. Well, I did see only one such student cheerfully chopping up early bronze age axes for metallographic examination. She told me they had plenty of them.

Anyway, X-ray fluoroscopy is the way to go, just make sure you are present. Lest they polish or grind some area to get a Better reading.

Rick · 26th October 2016, 04:08 AM

Do you fellows have any thoughts on this?
http://www.express.co.uk/news/scienc...-alien-ancient

Roland_M · 26th October 2016, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Do you fellows have any thoughts on this?
http://www.express.co.uk/news/scienc...-alien-ancient

"Some scientists have disputed the age, claiming that it could be anywhere between 400-years old and 80,000-years old"

My first question would be, how did they found out the age of the piece? Is it just an assumption or measured with technical methods like Radiocarbon dating?

I believe this piece is pretty young and was used under very aggressive environemt conditions. Maybe in the area of a blast furnace or in a chemical plant.

Nothing esoteric, no Aliens. Raw Aluminium is too soft for a fast ufo and have a melting point of only 660°C.

If it would be Alien-material, it must be a composite material. Raw Aluminium is not the best choice for an air-vehicle.

Roland

PS: Oh and the tool is 100% no cold hammered natural occuring copper, it was melted and casted.

JamesKelly · 27th October 2016, 03:08 AM

With all possible respect, I am considering placing some portions of that story about the old aluminum thing about Wife's roses next spring. I understand it is also good for rhubarb.

28th August 2016, 05:16 PM	#2
Silver Shield Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Phoenix Arizona USA Posts: 32	Copper ? Good Question ! ChrisPer thank you for your question , that's a good one . I never had a doubt about composition , as I have seen other items including bronze and brass in similar states of decay and have always found that the migration of copper and its salts in these alloys even if strongly present on the surface always is very thin in its depth. So usually with just a scratch test you get through it and you get the yellow metal alloy color if your test the object. Now I never said it was not heated or partially melted but melting (Cu 1085 C ) leaves slag which gets smooth surfaces being composed of associated minerals attached or inclusionally in the mass . If encapsulated it leaves cavities with rounded or smooth surfaces in the cavities ,until distorted by percussion ect. . The voids and cavities in this object have sharp angular profiles , generally. Now copper as found in nature is always pure while such metals as Gold and Silver always have at least trace amounts of each other as found in natural occurring mass .That's why the first coins where Electrum . The object has no value , it has no provenance other than" found around there" . The deep patina is from a marine environment , it was found in the Black Sea area of Bulgaria . I scratch tested it , its copper . It is only a curiosity ,and is only a representative piece with the properties expected of the 1st metal tools , but its form makes no sense other than used as a hand held tool ie a "Hand Axe" , at least that after years of thought and input have suggested . From field work over many decades, my experience , well my rather percussion damaged mind , says it copper . But as I know, I could always be wrong as it is the Human Condition.

28th August 2016, 03:21 PM	#1
ChrisPer Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 35	Interesting discussion, thank you. Has the object been subjected to spark spectroscopic analysis? I would expect native copper to have a clear compositional signature.

31st August 2016, 09:23 AM	#3
ChrisPer Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 35	Very interesting, thank you Silver Shield.

25th October 2016, 10:30 PM	#4
JamesKelly Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Michigan, U.S.A. Posts: 108	With respect to chemical analysis, the word "spark" gives me the shivers. There is a process, known as X-ray fluorescent analysis which may be applied with absolutely no marking of the metal. I am retired Director of Technology from a specialty metal supplier, Rolled Alloys. They have a wonderful device in the lab, at least the one I used was called: Innov-X Systems Model #XT-245S spectrometer. I was able to test the brass/bronze on a number of 19th century firearms, and the odd old coin with this device. Somewhere at the U of Az someone must have a similar machine. If you do not already know this, NEVER leave your artifact with a lab technician to analyze. You must have your personal body present at all times. Otherwise he may well cut it up or melt it to give you an even Better analyses. Learnt this at first job, Black & Decker. A salesman for B&D collected Civil War items, and came in with a short artillery sword, might even have been Confederate. Wanted us metallurgists to take a look at it. My boss had a wonderful sense of humor, he planned to cut the blade in half, then mount & polish as specimen for metallography. We were able to talk him out of this approach, therefore avoiding potential homicide. Lab guys have absolutely NO sense of humor, nor can they appreciate ancient things. This can hold true for archaeology students as well, in my experience. Well, I did see only one such student cheerfully chopping up early bronze age axes for metallographic examination. She told me they had plenty of them. Anyway, X-ray fluoroscopy is the way to go, just make sure you are present. Lest they polish or grind some area to get a Better reading.

26th October 2016, 04:08 AM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,268	Do you fellows have any thoughts on this? http://www.express.co.uk/news/scienc...-alien-ancient

27th October 2016, 03:08 AM	#7
JamesKelly Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Michigan, U.S.A. Posts: 108	With all possible respect, I am considering placing some portions of that story about the old aluminum thing about Wife's roses next spring. I understand it is also good for rhubarb.