Desperate Pata advice

Andy Davis · 2nd February 2006, 06:46 PM

Sorry guys I dont have a photo of this...yet but need to hear what you think.
I've been offerd a Pata gauntlet sword. Blade about 30inch in length, with leather scabbard, with a solid, plain brass hilt. Very small caligraphy to the one side.
I've never seen a brass example. Any idea on age and is it right!!! Do repros of these exist?
Cheers
Andy

B.I · 2nd February 2006, 07:14 PM

hi andy,
i'm afraid you ask the impossible. hard to authenticate anything without a photo. i dont know of any patas that are repro, but this doesnt mean they arent out there. the brass hilts were normally of the 18th and 19thC. the hilts were smaller and shallower than the early ones. however, brass hilts also go back into the 17thC, but these were larger, and more of a complete guantlet. to find an early one with its original scabbard is exceptionally rare. if the scabbard in modern looking, then the clues will be there.
i do remember a pata for sale in portobello some years back (your bearded friend). this had a very late blade, with its scabbard, and an early brass hilt. i remember the hilt, as it was original, but cant recall the blade (whether it was late 19thC, or modern). was worth buying for the hilt alone, as long as the price was right (but remember you are buying a hilt, not a pata).
sorry i cant be more help. why not put 'pata' into oriental arms search engine, and see if any are similar. if you post a similar piece, then maybe we can help more.

ham · 2nd February 2006, 07:22 PM

As B.I. says, it is impossible to assist without images.
Do be aware however, that brass-hilted copies of patas are in production, Portobello road yes, and in some posh galleries as well.
Probably brass hilts actually saw limited use in period, but remember that the purpose of the gauntlet was to protect the hand againt various sorts of blows first and foremost -- brass is not generally the best choice for this purpose.

Good luck!

Ham

B.I · 2nd February 2006, 08:06 PM

the culture is important to consider, and in india, aesthetics and form were considered alongside its usefulness in battle. as ham said, brass did have its limited use, but this doesnt mean that brass was not used in 'real' weapons and armour, as well as copper and bronze (more widely used in an earlier age). the pata was used in ritual and dance, and think the later brass-hilted patas with flexible blades were more likely used for this purpose.
the maharathas used them into the 18thC (as well as other cultures as far back as the 16th, and possibly earlier). the form of the guantlet will give a clue of its age, more than the material.

Andy Davis · 3rd February 2006, 05:06 AM

All useful info. Quality looked respectable enough but blade very light, so I would guess at the ceremonial type you described. In general form, very similar to the example shown here but in brass.
I'll have to consider buying it now, just so I can properly explain its description!

Andy Davis · 3rd February 2006, 07:23 PM

I have to come clean. The information was all for a auction today in North Yorkshire. Pata went for a decent price but the type didnt grab me, so I'll wait for a nice early chisseld steel variety.
Mind you...I did spend money!
See my other posts today

B.I · 3rd February 2006, 10:31 PM

dont worry andy, if you had liked it more, you would have bought it so no real loss. better ones are out there. it was a good sale, and i am glad you went. besides, it seems you did ok anyway!
i did consider travelling up, but there was nothing i desperately wanted to justify the mileage.

2nd February 2006, 06:46 PM	#1
Andy Davis Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: England, Northumberland Posts: 85	Desperate Pata advice Sorry guys I dont have a photo of this...yet but need to hear what you think. I've been offerd a Pata gauntlet sword. Blade about 30inch in length, with leather scabbard, with a solid, plain brass hilt. Very small caligraphy to the one side. I've never seen a brass example. Any idea on age and is it right!!! Do repros of these exist? Cheers Andy

3rd February 2006, 05:06 AM	#5
Andy Davis Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: England, Northumberland Posts: 85	Cheers chaps All useful info. Quality looked respectable enough but blade very light, so I would guess at the ceremonial type you described. In general form, very similar to the example shown here but in brass. I'll have to consider buying it now, just so I can properly explain its description! Attached Images

3rd February 2006, 07:23 PM	#6
Andy Davis Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: England, Northumberland Posts: 85	Oh well next time I have to come clean. The information was all for a auction today in North Yorkshire. Pata went for a decent price but the type didnt grab me, so I'll wait for a nice early chisseld steel variety. Mind you...I did spend money! See my other posts today

2nd February 2006, 07:14 PM	#2
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi andy, i'm afraid you ask the impossible. hard to authenticate anything without a photo. i dont know of any patas that are repro, but this doesnt mean they arent out there. the brass hilts were normally of the 18th and 19thC. the hilts were smaller and shallower than the early ones. however, brass hilts also go back into the 17thC, but these were larger, and more of a complete guantlet. to find an early one with its original scabbard is exceptionally rare. if the scabbard in modern looking, then the clues will be there. i do remember a pata for sale in portobello some years back (your bearded friend). this had a very late blade, with its scabbard, and an early brass hilt. i remember the hilt, as it was original, but cant recall the blade (whether it was late 19thC, or modern). was worth buying for the hilt alone, as long as the price was right (but remember you are buying a hilt, not a pata). sorry i cant be more help. why not put 'pata' into oriental arms search engine, and see if any are similar. if you post a similar piece, then maybe we can help more.

2nd February 2006, 07:22 PM	#3
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	As B.I. says, it is impossible to assist without images. Do be aware however, that brass-hilted copies of patas are in production, Portobello road yes, and in some posh galleries as well. Probably brass hilts actually saw limited use in period, but remember that the purpose of the gauntlet was to protect the hand againt various sorts of blows first and foremost -- brass is not generally the best choice for this purpose. Good luck! Ham

2nd February 2006, 08:06 PM	#4
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	the culture is important to consider, and in india, aesthetics and form were considered alongside its usefulness in battle. as ham said, brass did have its limited use, but this doesnt mean that brass was not used in 'real' weapons and armour, as well as copper and bronze (more widely used in an earlier age). the pata was used in ritual and dance, and think the later brass-hilted patas with flexible blades were more likely used for this purpose. the maharathas used them into the 18thC (as well as other cultures as far back as the 16th, and possibly earlier). the form of the guantlet will give a clue of its age, more than the material.

3rd February 2006, 10:31 PM	#7
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	dont worry andy, if you had liked it more, you would have bought it so no real loss. better ones are out there. it was a good sale, and i am glad you went. besides, it seems you did ok anyway! i did consider travelling up, but there was nothing i desperately wanted to justify the mileage.