Identification help needed

Martin Lubojacky · 7th March 2016, 07:53 AM

Hello,
Please, could you help with identification ? (and any relating info is welcome).
All parts are original, firmly keeping together, no damages. The sabre is not big (altogether cca 90 cms), but is heavy, The haft is made of very hard wood (something like cherry). Supension (rings) are big, as you can see, very strong. The blade is similar to typical e.g. Austro-Hungarian troopers sabers from the second part of 19th century. Overall it resembles me Polish sabres, but I put in into this forum because of the marks on the blade (producer/state armoury ?). My idea is it could be from the end of 19th/beginning 20th century.
Regards,
Martin

David R · 7th March 2016, 10:20 AM

I am going to make a flying leap of deduction here, and vote for it being Afghan Army, late 19th century.

David R · 7th March 2016, 10:22 AM

The reasons, the slightly awkward proportions married to competent manufacture, the Arabic style blade stamp, and what looks somewhat like the Afghan arsenal stamp.
I will take a second guess (saver) on it being Iranian Army of the same period. Both Nations were modernising their armies along Western lines resulting in some weapons that had the look, but not quite the proportions, of European gear.

Martin Lubojacky · 7th March 2016, 11:01 AM

Thank you David. I am allied to your logic. (Now I also heard for my friends, that it may be Armenian production stamp and Ottoman armoury mark, allegedly turn of 19/20th centuries - but this is also guess .... )

Jim McDougall · 7th March 2016, 05:29 PM

I think this is actually an Italian cavalry sabre of mid 19th c. or later style.
I don't have my copy at the moment, but the answer may be in:
"Armi Bianchi Militaire Italiene" C. Calamendrei, Florence, 1987

These curious 'finger stalls' in the grip are something that occurs on a number of Italian swords up into WWII, and it seems something Kronckew and I discussed a couple of years ago.

If you look at the basic hilt profile and particularly the wood on the hilt on this example attached, the similarities are somewhat compelling. I am really not sure what the blade stamps would be for, but would point out that Italian presence in Ethiopia and N. Africa was strong in the 1930s and before. In Harar, Ethiopia at the turn of the century prior to WWI most of the arms importers were Armenians, and of course the Ottoman connections may play in here as well.

Martin Lubojacky · 8th March 2016, 07:50 AM

Thank you Jim for your interesting input.
Therethrough, from my point of view, the number of possibilities widens -- from Afghanistan to Italy. There are two important things - the saber should be mentioned somewhere as a model (it was sure produced in series), and I would not underestimate stamps on the blade , too. I would be interested in standpoint of experts on Ottoman weapons from the beginning of 20th century, too. Could we shift the thread to "nonethnographis weapons, too ?
Regards,
Martin

7th March 2016, 07:53 AM	#1
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 836	Identification help needed Hello, Please, could you help with identification ? (and any relating info is welcome). All parts are original, firmly keeping together, no damages. The sabre is not big (altogether cca 90 cms), but is heavy, The haft is made of very hard wood (something like cherry). Supension (rings) are big, as you can see, very strong. The blade is similar to typical e.g. Austro-Hungarian troopers sabers from the second part of 19th century. Overall it resembles me Polish sabres, but I put in into this forum because of the marks on the blade (producer/state armoury ?). My idea is it could be from the end of 19th/beginning 20th century. Regards, Martin Attached Images

7th March 2016, 05:29 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,763	I think this is actually an Italian cavalry sabre of mid 19th c. or later style. I don't have my copy at the moment, but the answer may be in: "Armi Bianchi Militaire Italiene" C. Calamendrei, Florence, 1987 These curious 'finger stalls' in the grip are something that occurs on a number of Italian swords up into WWII, and it seems something Kronckew and I discussed a couple of years ago. If you look at the basic hilt profile and particularly the wood on the hilt on this example attached, the similarities are somewhat compelling. I am really not sure what the blade stamps would be for, but would point out that Italian presence in Ethiopia and N. Africa was strong in the 1930s and before. In Harar, Ethiopia at the turn of the century prior to WWI most of the arms importers were Armenians, and of course the Ottoman connections may play in here as well. Attached Images

7th March 2016, 10:20 AM	#2
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,053	I am going to make a flying leap of deduction here, and vote for it being Afghan Army, late 19th century.

7th March 2016, 10:22 AM	#3
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,053	The reasons, the slightly awkward proportions married to competent manufacture, the Arabic style blade stamp, and what looks somewhat like the Afghan arsenal stamp. I will take a second guess (saver) on it being Iranian Army of the same period. Both Nations were modernising their armies along Western lines resulting in some weapons that had the look, but not quite the proportions, of European gear.

7th March 2016, 11:01 AM	#4
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 836	Thank you David. I am allied to your logic. (Now I also heard for my friends, that it may be Armenian production stamp and Ottoman armoury mark, allegedly turn of 19/20th centuries - but this is also guess .... )

8th March 2016, 07:50 AM	#6
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 836	Thank you Jim for your interesting input. Therethrough, from my point of view, the number of possibilities widens -- from Afghanistan to Italy. There are two important things - the saber should be mentioned somewhere as a model (it was sure produced in series), and I would not underestimate stamps on the blade , too. I would be interested in standpoint of experts on Ottoman weapons from the beginning of 20th century, too. Could we shift the thread to "nonethnographis weapons, too ? Regards, Martin