Keris malela in Bujangga Manik

A. G. Maisey · 6th March 2023, 04:27 AM

No way to judge quality when new of the items I used to send to Jerzy, as I said, it was all junk: old, eroded, formless.

But the thing to note is this:- there was no local material, I used to believe that there was local iron that had been smelted from beach sands in South Jawa & Bali, and possibly other places, my belief was generated by inaccurate information that was floating around 20 or 30 or more years back, probably misguided local pride.

We now know that there is no evidence of locally smelted iron anywhere in Jawa/ Bali.

All the ferric material came in from somewhere else, mostly China, as both raw (ingots) of iron and as tools. There is more than enough evidence of this. But even so, it is reasonable to assume that all material imported was not of equal quality, thus the variations in pamor sanak.

Jean · 6th March 2023, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

We now know that there is no evidence of locally smelted iron anywhere in Jawa/ Bali, & probably no credible evidence for anywhere else in the Archipelago either.

Hello Alan,
What about pamor Luwu in Sulawesi?
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 6th March 2023, 11:41 AM

Yes Jean, of course.

I sometimes do get a little bit too focused on Jawa/Bali.

Luwu was a major producer & exporter of nickel/iron, and was producing this from very early times --- & still is. Hardjonegoro gave me some Luwu nickel, but I never got around to using it.

There have been some quite informative archeological investigations of work sites carried out in South Sulawesi, especially around Lake Matano & Katue, I think some of the Kutue sites date back to the first millenium.

You're right Jean, I should stop & think for a moment before extending my Jawa focused thoughts into other places.

So we can just delete my off the cuff comment, & I thank you Jean for waking me up.

However, from memory, I think that those South Sulawesi smelts produced iron/nickel alloy, cannot recall if there was any evidence of pure iron smelting. I think they were smelting from laterite ores, so it might have been impossible to get away from the nickel inclusion.

EDIT

There was a big project a while back that looked closely at this matter, I'm pretty sure it was called the "OXIS Project" and a very good paper was written on it by a Misol Do, I have a copy of the paper but i cannot find it on the net, I'm sure somebody with more time than I have could locate it.

David · 6th March 2023, 12:52 PM

Is this what you were looking for Alan?
https://www.oxis.org/theses/misol-2103.pdf

A. G. Maisey · 6th March 2023, 08:16 PM

Yeah, that's the one.

There was another one I think that was organised by some Australian academics. I've totally forgotten the details.

rasdan · 7th March 2023, 02:38 AM

G'day Alan,

Perhaps this is the other one? It was written by Dr. David Bulbeck of ANU.

https://oxis.org/downloads/land-of-iron.pdf

A. G. Maisey · 7th March 2023, 03:55 AM

Thanks Rasdan, yep, that's it.

In fact I've got a copy of this paper in my computer too, but I'd forgotten the title & details.

I tend to run a lot on memory, and these days my memory is not all that great, I remember some things well enough, other things I partially remember, the folder I keep these papers in is about 6gb - 7gb & its not really well organised.

If I'm actually working on something I survive OK, but if the matter is peripheral, I often do not remember much at all.

6th March 2023, 04:27 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,742	No way to judge quality when new of the items I used to send to Jerzy, as I said, it was all junk: old, eroded, formless. But the thing to note is this:- there was no local material, I used to believe that there was local iron that had been smelted from beach sands in South Jawa & Bali, and possibly other places, my belief was generated by inaccurate information that was floating around 20 or 30 or more years back, probably misguided local pride. We now know that there is no evidence of locally smelted iron anywhere in Jawa/ Bali. All the ferric material came in from somewhere else, mostly China, as both raw (ingots) of iron and as tools. There is more than enough evidence of this. But even so, it is reasonable to assume that all material imported was not of equal quality, thus the variations in pamor sanak. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 6th March 2023 at 11:41 AM.

6th March 2023, 11:41 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,742	Yes Jean, of course. I sometimes do get a little bit too focused on Jawa/Bali. Luwu was a major producer & exporter of nickel/iron, and was producing this from very early times --- & still is. Hardjonegoro gave me some Luwu nickel, but I never got around to using it. There have been some quite informative archeological investigations of work sites carried out in South Sulawesi, especially around Lake Matano & Katue, I think some of the Kutue sites date back to the first millenium. You're right Jean, I should stop & think for a moment before extending my Jawa focused thoughts into other places. So we can just delete my off the cuff comment, & I thank you Jean for waking me up. However, from memory, I think that those South Sulawesi smelts produced iron/nickel alloy, cannot recall if there was any evidence of pure iron smelting. I think they were smelting from laterite ores, so it might have been impossible to get away from the nickel inclusion. EDIT There was a big project a while back that looked closely at this matter, I'm pretty sure it was called the "OXIS Project" and a very good paper was written on it by a Misol Do, I have a copy of the paper but i cannot find it on the net, I'm sure somebody with more time than I have could locate it. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 6th March 2023 at 12:03 PM. Reason: additional info

6th March 2023, 12:52 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,047	Is this what you were looking for Alan? https://www.oxis.org/theses/misol-2103.pdf

6th March 2023, 08:16 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,742	Yeah, that's the one. There was another one I think that was organised by some Australian academics. I've totally forgotten the details.

7th March 2023, 02:38 AM	#6
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	G'day Alan, Perhaps this is the other one? It was written by Dr. David Bulbeck of ANU. https://oxis.org/downloads/land-of-iron.pdf

7th March 2023, 03:55 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,742	Thanks Rasdan, yep, that's it. In fact I've got a copy of this paper in my computer too, but I'd forgotten the title & details. I tend to run a lot on memory, and these days my memory is not all that great, I remember some things well enough, other things I partially remember, the folder I keep these papers in is about 6gb - 7gb & its not really well organised. If I'm actually working on something I survive OK, but if the matter is peripheral, I often do not remember much at all.