Weighting in on Handle Cross sections: Round vs Oval/ Rectangular

Nathaniel · 2nd May 2013, 07:13 PM

Hello All,

I wanted to bring up question for the group...round handle cross sections...what are peoples thoughts or knowledge regarding the use/ function/ effectiveness of using a round handle. Slashing weapons like the swords of Thailand, Burma, Laos, etc typically have round handles. Usually the advantage of a oval handle is that it helps the user to to keep have correct blade orientation, which I would think would be even more important in the heat of battle with several quick strikes. I'm also thinking of single edge polearms as well...aren't most of these with round shafts as well? With a stabbing type weapon like a spear, blade orientation does not matter.

Your thoughts gentlemen?

kronckew · 2nd May 2013, 09:06 PM

most spears have edges which could be used for slashing*. some pole arms have oval or octagonal/rectangular poles for orientation or even grip straps. halberds, pole axes, etc... lances and javalins didn't need orientation. some are just round, possibly as an expense saver.

* - vikings had a 'hewing spear'.

i find with my round handled dha/darb that as i hold the scabbard in one hand and the grip in the other, they orient themselves as i un-scabbard it. i do prefer oval tho.

Timo Nieminen · 3rd May 2013, 08:03 AM

Having used a round handled blade as a machete, I recommend an oval handle. This was a straight blade. Where the handle is round, and the blade is curved towards the back, and the handle follows this curve, then a round handle is OK - hitting something will not tend to make the sword twist in your grip. Even with a straight blade, if you go to draw-cut, cutting with the grip leading and the point trailing, you'll get the same effect (i.e., lack of ill-effect from the round grip). Chopping with a straight blade with round grip is bad.

A lot of single-edged polearms have oval-section hafts. The Japanese naginata and plenty of Chinese polearms come to mind. On European polearms, hafts were often flattened octagonal or rectangular (as noted above).

Round is lighter from the same stiffness in the weakest direction (all directions will be equally weak for a round pole, neglecting effect of grain of wood). Keeping the weight down will matter for long polearms.

Iain · 4th May 2013, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timo Nieminen

Having used a round handled blade as a machete, I recommend an oval handle. This was a straight blade. Where the handle is round, and the blade is curved towards the back, and the handle follows this curve, then a round handle is OK - hitting something will not tend to make the sword twist in your grip. Even with a straight blade, if you go to draw-cut, cutting with the grip leading and the point trailing, you'll get the same effect (i.e., lack of ill-effect from the round grip). Chopping with a straight blade with round grip is bad.

Interesting point - most of my takouba have pretty much round grips, or some have octagonal grips. From contemporary sword dances and other material it seems the draw cut is what was favored with this type.

A.alnakkas · 4th May 2013, 11:24 AM

Najdi saifs have a squared handle with alittle curved edges for more comfortable grip. I have seen this in both the newly made ones and the old ones.

Syrian saifs are with rounded hilts.

Gavin Nugent · 12th May 2013, 01:19 PM

Hi Nathaniel,

I know we have discussed this a little in email but I wanted to share more of my thoughts for discussion.

IMHO grip shape alone does not dictate how effective a sword is in combat. Hilt cant, hilt length, blade curve, blade length, weight etc all play a part too and I hope those versed in training of arms chime in further too.

I have no preference but I have noted that round grip on say a Dha or Darb do offer a larger surface area of contact within the palm which I am sure has some benefits.

Spear and polearms as you note do not require as much orientation as much as a sword/sabre does.

Timo, I am interested in seeing oval poles on Chinese pole arms.
All antiques I own and have sold, are/were round or faceted and in a couple of instances, faceted leading to round.

Again, I am really interested in hearing from re-enacters and those who train in weapons of antiquity for sport, you guys will be able to tell us a lot about how things feel with metal banging on metal.

Gavin

2nd May 2013, 07:13 PM	#1
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Weighting in on Handle Cross sections: Round vs Oval/ Rectangular Hello All, I wanted to bring up question for the group...round handle cross sections...what are peoples thoughts or knowledge regarding the use/ function/ effectiveness of using a round handle. Slashing weapons like the swords of Thailand, Burma, Laos, etc typically have round handles. Usually the advantage of a oval handle is that it helps the user to to keep have correct blade orientation, which I would think would be even more important in the heat of battle with several quick strikes. I'm also thinking of single edge polearms as well...aren't most of these with round shafts as well? With a stabbing type weapon like a spear, blade orientation does not matter. Your thoughts gentlemen?

2nd May 2013, 09:06 PM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,150	most spears have edges which could be used for slashing. some pole arms have oval or octagonal/rectangular poles for orientation or even grip straps. halberds, pole axes, etc... lances and javalins didn't need orientation. some are just round, possibly as an expense saver. - vikings had a 'hewing spear'. i find with my round handled dha/darb that as i hold the scabbard in one hand and the grip in the other, they orient themselves as i un-scabbard it. i do prefer oval tho.

3rd May 2013, 08:03 AM	#3
Timo Nieminen Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 422	Having used a round handled blade as a machete, I recommend an oval handle. This was a straight blade. Where the handle is round, and the blade is curved towards the back, and the handle follows this curve, then a round handle is OK - hitting something will not tend to make the sword twist in your grip. Even with a straight blade, if you go to draw-cut, cutting with the grip leading and the point trailing, you'll get the same effect (i.e., lack of ill-effect from the round grip). Chopping with a straight blade with round grip is bad. A lot of single-edged polearms have oval-section hafts. The Japanese naginata and plenty of Chinese polearms come to mind. On European polearms, hafts were often flattened octagonal or rectangular (as noted above). Round is lighter from the same stiffness in the weakest direction (all directions will be equally weak for a round pole, neglecting effect of grain of wood). Keeping the weight down will matter for long polearms.

4th May 2013, 11:24 AM	#5
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,338	Najdi saifs have a squared handle with alittle curved edges for more comfortable grip. I have seen this in both the newly made ones and the old ones. Syrian saifs are with rounded hilts.

12th May 2013, 01:19 PM	#6
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Hi Nathaniel, I know we have discussed this a little in email but I wanted to share more of my thoughts for discussion. IMHO grip shape alone does not dictate how effective a sword is in combat. Hilt cant, hilt length, blade curve, blade length, weight etc all play a part too and I hope those versed in training of arms chime in further too. I have no preference but I have noted that round grip on say a Dha or Darb do offer a larger surface area of contact within the palm which I am sure has some benefits. Spear and polearms as you note do not require as much orientation as much as a sword/sabre does. Timo, I am interested in seeing oval poles on Chinese pole arms. All antiques I own and have sold, are/were round or faceted and in a couple of instances, faceted leading to round. Again, I am really interested in hearing from re-enacters and those who train in weapons of antiquity for sport, you guys will be able to tell us a lot about how things feel with metal banging on metal. Gavin