Eastern European or Ottoman saber?

werecow · 27th August 2022, 02:01 AM

I wasn't sure whether to put this here or on ethnographic weapons, but I bought this fixer-upper last year (all pictures except the last one). The grip scales are loose, the blade has some bends and some pitting, and then there's the missing guard and chape of course, but it still looked nice enough for me to pick it up.

Based on the cutout on the grip and the mouth of the scabbard, I deduce that it is similar to one of the type in the last picture. I've seen a fair number of these around by now. They are variously listed as Hungarian, Ukrainian, Balkan, Turkish, or just Ottoman. The blade type varies (mine looks like some shashka blades I've seen) but the guard and chape tend to have the same profile as the ones in the last picture. The details of the decorations on the fittings appear to vary a bit.

The seller said his father bought it in Turkey some time in the 60s, in more or less the current state.
I'd love to find a matching guard and chape for it one day. But for now, I'd just like to narrow the herritage in time and space! Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

werecow · 27th August 2022, 02:15 AM

Some more pictures since the lighting is a bit crappy.

David R · 27th August 2022, 09:32 AM

I have similar state remains of one very very like this. It's late period Ottoman military, and I have been told Ottoman Navy, in a revival style. They get stripped of their mounts because some idiots think they are more profitable as scrap silver.

kronckew · 27th August 2022, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David R

I have similar state remains of one very very like this. It's late period Ottoman military, and I have been told Ottoman Navy, in a revival style. They get stripped of their mounts because some idiots think they are more profitable as scrap silver.

The cross-guard obviously has been removed at some point, the areas it covered on the grip and scabbard are apparent. Makes it more sashqa-like. The seam on the scabbard is very Ottoman.

werecow · 27th August 2022, 04:39 PM

Thanks for your input guys. I'd be interested in seeing pictures of yours, David!

Yeah, the scabbard stitching definitely looks Ottoman. Although FWIW, the other example I posted is listed as "Turkish-type Hungarian sabre from the 18th century" by the Ferenc Nadasdy Museum here.

And yeah, it looks very shashka-esque without the guard. On a related note, see the image attached as to why I said the blade reminds me of that of some shashka blades (although obviously the tip is different).
I think the closest one I've found in terms of what the guard would have probably looked like is this (leftmost) one:

Interestingly though, that one looks like there is a rivet at the top, but I can see no indication that there was ever a rivet running through the grip scales or blade on mine.

I like the look of it in spite of the missing bits and other blemishes, and it is my only Ottoman pistol gripped sword (I like this grip style and I'd love to one day own a nice pala, but for now that is outside my budget). Still very sharp, too.

And it feels nice to hold except for the movement in the grip. Would be nice if I could somehow fasten those grip scales a bit so that I could handle it a bit more without them giving away in my hands, but I'm not sure how to do that without having to remove the rivets (which I'm not comfortable doing at this point). There is a sizeable gap between the scales and the blade, so I suppose it would be possible to inject some epoxy/pitch in there, but I don't want to accidentally ruin it with an ill-advised repair attempt. Any advice on how to accomplish this in a responsible way (if it is even possible), and on what kind of pitch to use would be appreciated.

David R · 28th August 2022, 12:06 AM

Poor pics, but perhaps good enough.

werecow · 28th August 2022, 05:32 AM

I like that fullering! I'm not seeing any rivets at all on your grip, which is interesting. Is that accurate or is it just that they don't stand out in the pictures? I wonder if that suggests that the guard was held in place solely by the pitch/friction.

David R · 28th August 2022, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by werecow

I like that fullering! I'm not seeing any rivets at all on your grip, which is interesting. Is that accurate or is it just that they don't stand out in the pictures? I wonder if that suggests that the guard was held in place solely by the pitch/friction.

The fullering is what attracted me to it in the first place. The grip is secured by a well fitted "pin" in the pommel, that only goes partially through the horn scales on each side but transfixes a full tang. Rotation is prevented by the silver strapping round the full tang. A bit like the pic below.

27th August 2022, 02:01 AM	#1
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 430	Eastern European or Ottoman saber? I wasn't sure whether to put this here or on ethnographic weapons, but I bought this fixer-upper last year (all pictures except the last one). The grip scales are loose, the blade has some bends and some pitting, and then there's the missing guard and chape of course, but it still looked nice enough for me to pick it up. Based on the cutout on the grip and the mouth of the scabbard, I deduce that it is similar to one of the type in the last picture. I've seen a fair number of these around by now. They are variously listed as Hungarian, Ukrainian, Balkan, Turkish, or just Ottoman. The blade type varies (mine looks like some shashka blades I've seen) but the guard and chape tend to have the same profile as the ones in the last picture. The details of the decorations on the fittings appear to vary a bit. The seller said his father bought it in Turkey some time in the 60s, in more or less the current state. I'd love to find a matching guard and chape for it one day. But for now, I'd just like to narrow the herritage in time and space! Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Attached Images Last edited by werecow; 27th August 2022 at 02:33 AM.

27th August 2022, 02:15 AM	#2
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 430	Some more pictures since the lighting is a bit crappy. Attached Images

27th August 2022, 04:39 PM	#5
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 430	Thanks for your input guys. I'd be interested in seeing pictures of yours, David! Yeah, the scabbard stitching definitely looks Ottoman. Although FWIW, the other example I posted is listed as "Turkish-type Hungarian sabre from the 18th century" by the Ferenc Nadasdy Museum here. And yeah, it looks very shashka-esque without the guard. On a related note, see the image attached as to why I said the blade reminds me of that of some shashka blades (although obviously the tip is different). I think the closest one I've found in terms of what the guard would have probably looked like is this (leftmost) one: Interestingly though, that one looks like there is a rivet at the top, but I can see no indication that there was ever a rivet running through the grip scales or blade on mine. I like the look of it in spite of the missing bits and other blemishes, and it is my only Ottoman pistol gripped sword (I like this grip style and I'd love to one day own a nice pala, but for now that is outside my budget). Still very sharp, too. And it feels nice to hold except for the movement in the grip. Would be nice if I could somehow fasten those grip scales a bit so that I could handle it a bit more without them giving away in my hands, but I'm not sure how to do that without having to remove the rivets (which I'm not comfortable doing at this point). There is a sizeable gap between the scales and the blade, so I suppose it would be possible to inject some epoxy/pitch in there, but I don't want to accidentally ruin it with an ill-advised repair attempt. Any advice on how to accomplish this in a responsible way (if it is even possible), and on what kind of pitch to use would be appreciated. Attached Images

28th August 2022, 12:06 AM	#6
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,051	Poor pics, but perhaps good enough. Attached Images

27th August 2022, 09:32 AM	#3
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,051	I have similar state remains of one very very like this. It's late period Ottoman military, and I have been told Ottoman Navy, in a revival style. They get stripped of their mounts because some idiots think they are more profitable as scrap silver.

28th August 2022, 05:32 AM	#7
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 430	I like that fullering! I'm not seeing any rivets at all on your grip, which is interesting. Is that accurate or is it just that they don't stand out in the pictures? I wonder if that suggests that the guard was held in place solely by the pitch/friction.