Opinions on a Takouba

Emanuel · 5th May 2006, 01:00 AM

Hello,
This auction just ended on ebay http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1
I think it is a takouba of the "southern variety" due to the rounded pommel. It looks a lot more intricately decorated than most other takoubas I've seen, the hilt and scabbard being covered in brass. Any ideas or opinions on it?

Regards,
Manolo

katana · 5th May 2006, 01:57 PM

The description mentions repairs to the handle and hand guard. Perhaps these repairs were not done the same as the original? If it is still in the original style, it looks to be a very interesting and decorative Takouba. Presumably the first owner had status within the community.

Tim Simmons · 5th May 2006, 06:07 PM

Very difficult to make an assessment of the damage and repairs from these pictures, but it did not cost much, and looks as if it was made for someone of some status. I think some of these are more in the line of dress swords. I have a large brass arm knife with a similar looking blade obiously not as long, which could be used in anger but I am not so sure that was really what it was made for when compered to real fighting arm Knives.

Emanuel · 5th May 2006, 10:13 PM

Hello Tim and Katana,
So would this type be a fairly new (20th c.) parade/dress piece or an older example representative of traditional practices? The brass on this one looks worn and dirty, and the blade shows some signs of having been sharpened no?
Looking at the takouba serving as logo for this forum, it certainly looks like it saw many a fight, yet it is finely decorated. Would it be specific to noble or vassal tribes or tribal leaders? Is there any literature dealing specifically with takouba and covering decorative patterns?
It would be helpful if the members who own such swords could post them for comparison.

Thanks,
Manolo

katana · 5th May 2006, 11:51 PM

I have only the one Takouba, and I would say it is the fairly common and of typical style. The blade on this one is well tempered, 'springy' (a technical term

, and still fairly sharp even though it has not been sharpened recently. The blade also has the usual 'crescent moon' (2 either side).
The handle and guard, usually are leather covered, and the pommel shape and design is quite common. Here is a pic of my 'common' one below,but I really like the fact that its been 'used'.
Tim, Jim, and others are very knowledgeable about these swords, I am sure you will find their opinions very informative.
..... Ah, one more thing, you're right the Takouba in the Forums banner is something else.

Tim Simmons · 6th May 2006, 11:27 AM

Unfortunately I no longer have one of these swords, something I now deeply regret, and I am having great difficulty finding a replacement at the price I am prepared to pay.

I am not saying they were not used in battle. It is just a feeling that many, and very fine ones with a good springy temper, do not seem specially designed for combat. There thrusting ability and the cut are equally weak when in comparison to other weapons. I have seen WW1 parade swords that were given an edge and used in the field.

This arm dagger has a blade very similar to many Takouba blades. It is very beautiful very springy and could carry a very keen edge but I have doubts as to whether it was primarily made for combat. Just in passing if anyone knows anything about the wooden chap used as a stop in the picture please feel free to pass it on.

Jim McDougall · 7th May 2006, 05:44 AM

It seems that other than the article by Dr. Lloyd Cabot-Briggs, little has focused specifically as far as typology or identification of Tuareg edged weapons, other than the article written on this site by Dr.Lee Jones.
By the very nomadic nature of the Tuareg tribes themselves, it seems extremely difficult to geographically classify the variations of takouba and especially of the arm daggers (telek).
The Tuareg, as virtually all tribal groups of Saharan regions, are keenly sensitive to symbolism and superstitions of thier folk religious beliefs. The use of either leather, or brass/copper in covering the hilts of thier swords has to do with the concept that the Tuareg must avoid touching iron or white metal which has negative and deadly properties.Presumably the sheath coverings further carry this function, along with decorative motif that is intended to protect the owner from the evil eye.

The circular motif on Manolo's example is extremely interesting and while I have not specifically seen such motif on takoubas, it seems to reflect possibly influence from the east, resembling similar geometric motif designs that appear on weapons that may be Sudanic.

The very nice arm dagger that Tim has carries the geometric design often used in Tuareg material culture known as the Agadez cross and is typically associated with this region of Niger and according to Angela Fisher ("Africa Adorned", N.Y.1984, p.194) by nomads to the west far into Mali.

One of the most interesting features that seem consistant on the takoubas' blades is the rounded tip, which interestingly is much the same as the 'kattara' from Oman. I have often wondered if this type point reflected possibly a preference for slashing in combat rather than thrusting.
While the takouba is still worn today as an element of traditional costume, I think that the AK-47 is pretty much the weapon of choice (as Lee Jones can well attest!).

Best regards,
Jim

TVV · 7th May 2006, 06:19 AM

Quote:

The use of either leather, or brass/copper in covering the hilts of thier swords has to do with the concept that the Tuareg must avoid touching iron or white metal which has negative and deadly properties.Presumably the sheath coverings further carry this function, along with decorative motif that is intended to protect the owner from the evil eye.

Jim, I have a takouba with a hilt, encased in white metal, except for the crossguard, which is covered in leather, some of which is missing unfortunately. I do not have the scabbard, and I think the sword is from the 60s the earliest - the blade is extremely flexible, and I guess it was made from a recycle car spring or who knows what. The motif on the hilt is a common serpentine, which would probably serve to repel the evil eye, but why would the encasing be of white metal? Would that signify a sword made for the tourist market?

Emanuel · 7th May 2006, 03:50 PM

Hello Jim,

The aversion to touching metal is also seen amongst the Masai is it not? As I understand it, the whole cult associated with smiths and metal craftsmen was relegated to magic and sorcery among the Tuareg. I hadn't thought this extended to weapons, as some of their spears are entirely made of metal -iron or steel- including shafts.
I have tried looking for the circular motifs in Tuareg jewellery, but I haven't found any. The cross of Agades on Tim's telek is omni-present in jewellery of all kinds, as are some of the criss-crossing patterns and rombic figures. I will try to post some pictures of these soon. By western influence do you mean the western world or still within Africa?
The takouba I posted seems to have a thick blade, so I wonder how springy it is. I've never handled such swords, are they heavy? well balanced? About the rounded tip, why restrict fighting styles to such an extent? It would not be difficult to make a functional point and thereby provide more versatility. Wouldn't thrusting be more effective against the hide shields?

Many thanks for your responses,
Manolo

Tim Simmons · 7th May 2006, 04:51 PM

Some pictures of Tuareg/Hausa decoration on leather work. How much carries symbolic or talisman value is hard to say, as you can see this is the same type of work as on weapons. It could just be decorative? Taken with flash on.

RomaRana · 7th May 2006, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

Hello Jim,

The aversion to touching metal is also seen amongst the Masai is it not? As I understand it, the whole cult associated with smiths and metal craftsmen ,

Before selecting a sword or spear from the smith Maasai men must first grease their hands. Also, traditionally the smithing races - Chagga and debased Maasai groups who lost their cattle during the rinderpest epidemic were historically kept in a state of near slavery. For payment they were given bad animal, which the Maasai raised for them and kept until they were needed for slaughter.

Many of the smithing groups also were not allowed to circumcise their males because it was believed that they were unclean due to the metal work but also because it was thought that they contained both a male and female essence.

You also see the fear of the blacksmith in the old Mali epic the Sundiata and it goes into great detail about this.

Tim Simmons · 11th May 2006, 06:21 PM

Many Europeans, men and women wear small copper bracelets. They are plain and not really decorative like jewellery. I was told they were to ward of arthritis, does anyone know more?

katana · 11th May 2006, 06:33 PM

Hi Tim,
I've used copper bracelets for many years, they have been effective, for me anyway, in easing the symptoms of Rheumatism. Some people find added benefit when magnets are also incorporated in a copper bracelet.
Traces of copper salts penetrate the skin and enter the bloodstream. In fact copper, as a dietary supplement, is often used, in conjunction with other vitamins and minerals to ease Arthritis and Rheumatism.

Emanuel · 2nd June 2006, 08:41 PM

Hello,

I've just received the takouba that started the thread, and now I'm faced with the problem of cleaning it and bringing it to a descent state. The blade itself has little rust along the fuller, and I won't touch the scabbard as it is fragile. The guard area is the problem. There is a lot of gunk/glue and whatnot inside the large wound/opening, and the brass/copper shows considerable oxydation. I will attempt some gentle cleaning with lemon/lime juice and a brush, but can you suggest some more effective cleaning and preservation techniques? There is also a sort of disk under the guard which has been bent back towards the pommel, and which hinders the grip. Should I try to bend it back on the guard?

Thanks and regards,
Emanuel

Tim Simmons · 3rd June 2006, 08:28 PM

Repairs to crumpled sheet metal and hollow forms can be quite difficult especially sealed hollow forms. The only thing you can do where you have access is to make your own wood tools to push the metal back to its original position or as near as possible. This is how brass musical instruments are repaired after being badly dented, wood rollers are used to reform the shape. A bit like some car body work only with more finesse.

katana · 3rd June 2006, 08:52 PM

Sheet metals, especially those of the softer metals like copper are notorious for breaking when straightening a piece that is creased, (such as the disc fitted behind the guard.) If you do attempt this, my advice would be slowly and gently, perhaps using pliers to grip and lever the piece, this will give you more control. Ensure that the jaws of the pliers are protected by thickish cardboard (not corrugated), this will help prevent marking the softer metal of the 'disc.' It won't be a perfect repair, but will give a more acceptable appearance..... Hope this helps

Emanuel · 4th June 2006, 04:30 PM

Tim, Katana, thanks for the suggestions. It looks like the guard is one piece of metal, whitish in colour, then covered in brass. Oddly enough it looks melted, as if it was squeezed by hot tongs or something. The disk makes no sense to me, and looks like a later addition, perhaps the "repair" mentioned by the seller. I imagine that an owner at some point tried to repair or change the guard in some way and, after removing it tried to glue it back on -explaining all the ugly gunk. Do any of you have info on how takoubas were traditionally constructed? How is the guard made and attached?
The disk is indeed britle and I think it will snap if I try to bend it too much. Would heating it a bit help?
The scabbard is made of thin planks of wood, covered in leather and two decorative brass pieces at the mouth and foot. The lower part is broken or is just leather, as it's limp and looks like it could get ripped off...

katana · 4th June 2006, 04:42 PM

Heating would make the metal more pliable. In fact heating most metals to a dull red heat and the quenching in water, makes the metal softer and more maulable ( annealing ). Obviously, if the disc is not removable, I would not recommend this at all, the heat , by conduction would surely cause problems with any soldered joints nearby.

Emanuel · 4th June 2006, 06:20 PM

Could you recommend some sort of solvent that would disolve the excessive glue/epoxy? I'm thinking about removing the guard -if possible- cleaning everything and putting it back together.

5th May 2006, 01:00 AM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Opinions on a Takouba Hello, This auction just ended on ebay http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1 I think it is a takouba of the "southern variety" due to the rounded pommel. It looks a lot more intricately decorated than most other takoubas I've seen, the hilt and scabbard being covered in brass. Any ideas or opinions on it? Regards, Manolo

5th May 2006, 11:51 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	I have only the one Takouba, and I would say it is the fairly common and of typical style. The blade on this one is well tempered, 'springy' (a technical term , and still fairly sharp even though it has not been sharpened recently. The blade also has the usual 'crescent moon' (2 either side). The handle and guard, usually are leather covered, and the pommel shape and design is quite common. Here is a pic of my 'common' one below,but I really like the fact that its been 'used'. Tim, Jim, and others are very knowledgeable about these swords, I am sure you will find their opinions very informative. ..... Ah, one more thing, you're right the Takouba in the Forums banner is something else. Attached Images

6th May 2006, 11:27 AM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Unfortunately I no longer have one of these swords, something I now deeply regret, and I am having great difficulty finding a replacement at the price I am prepared to pay. I am not saying they were not used in battle. It is just a feeling that many, and very fine ones with a good springy temper, do not seem specially designed for combat. There thrusting ability and the cut are equally weak when in comparison to other weapons. I have seen WW1 parade swords that were given an edge and used in the field. This arm dagger has a blade very similar to many Takouba blades. It is very beautiful very springy and could carry a very keen edge but I have doubts as to whether it was primarily made for combat. Just in passing if anyone knows anything about the wooden chap used as a stop in the picture please feel free to pass it on. Attached Images

7th May 2006, 05:44 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,757	It seems that other than the article by Dr. Lloyd Cabot-Briggs, little has focused specifically as far as typology or identification of Tuareg edged weapons, other than the article written on this site by Dr.Lee Jones. By the very nomadic nature of the Tuareg tribes themselves, it seems extremely difficult to geographically classify the variations of takouba and especially of the arm daggers (telek). The Tuareg, as virtually all tribal groups of Saharan regions, are keenly sensitive to symbolism and superstitions of thier folk religious beliefs. The use of either leather, or brass/copper in covering the hilts of thier swords has to do with the concept that the Tuareg must avoid touching iron or white metal which has negative and deadly properties.Presumably the sheath coverings further carry this function, along with decorative motif that is intended to protect the owner from the evil eye. The circular motif on Manolo's example is extremely interesting and while I have not specifically seen such motif on takoubas, it seems to reflect possibly influence from the east, resembling similar geometric motif designs that appear on weapons that may be Sudanic. The very nice arm dagger that Tim has carries the geometric design often used in Tuareg material culture known as the Agadez cross and is typically associated with this region of Niger and according to Angela Fisher ("Africa Adorned", N.Y.1984, p.194) by nomads to the west far into Mali. One of the most interesting features that seem consistant on the takoubas' blades is the rounded tip, which interestingly is much the same as the 'kattara' from Oman. I have often wondered if this type point reflected possibly a preference for slashing in combat rather than thrusting. While the takouba is still worn today as an element of traditional costume, I think that the AK-47 is pretty much the weapon of choice (as Lee Jones can well attest!). Best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 7th May 2006 at 07:22 PM.

7th May 2006, 04:51 PM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Some pictures of Tuareg/Hausa decoration on leather work. How much carries symbolic or talisman value is hard to say, as you can see this is the same type of work as on weapons. It could just be decorative? Taken with flash on. Attached Images

5th May 2006, 01:57 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	The description mentions repairs to the handle and hand guard. Perhaps these repairs were not done the same as the original? If it is still in the original style, it looks to be a very interesting and decorative Takouba. Presumably the first owner had status within the community.

5th May 2006, 06:07 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Very difficult to make an assessment of the damage and repairs from these pictures, but it did not cost much, and looks as if it was made for someone of some status. I think some of these are more in the line of dress swords. I have a large brass arm knife with a similar looking blade obiously not as long, which could be used in anger but I am not so sure that was really what it was made for when compered to real fighting arm Knives.

5th May 2006, 10:13 PM	#4
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello Tim and Katana, So would this type be a fairly new (20th c.) parade/dress piece or an older example representative of traditional practices? The brass on this one looks worn and dirty, and the blade shows some signs of having been sharpened no? Looking at the takouba serving as logo for this forum, it certainly looks like it saw many a fight, yet it is finely decorated. Would it be specific to noble or vassal tribes or tribal leaders? Is there any literature dealing specifically with takouba and covering decorative patterns? It would be helpful if the members who own such swords could post them for comparison. Thanks, Manolo

7th May 2006, 03:50 PM	#9
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello Jim, The aversion to touching metal is also seen amongst the Masai is it not? As I understand it, the whole cult associated with smiths and metal craftsmen was relegated to magic and sorcery among the Tuareg. I hadn't thought this extended to weapons, as some of their spears are entirely made of metal -iron or steel- including shafts. I have tried looking for the circular motifs in Tuareg jewellery, but I haven't found any. The cross of Agades on Tim's telek is omni-present in jewellery of all kinds, as are some of the criss-crossing patterns and rombic figures. I will try to post some pictures of these soon. By western influence do you mean the western world or still within Africa? The takouba I posted seems to have a thick blade, so I wonder how springy it is. I've never handled such swords, are they heavy? well balanced? About the rounded tip, why restrict fighting styles to such an extent? It would not be difficult to make a functional point and thereby provide more versatility. Wouldn't thrusting be more effective against the hide shields? Many thanks for your responses, Manolo

11th May 2006, 06:21 PM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Many Europeans, men and women wear small copper bracelets. They are plain and not really decorative like jewellery. I was told they were to ward of arthritis, does anyone know more?

11th May 2006, 06:33 PM	#13
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Tim, I've used copper bracelets for many years, they have been effective, for me anyway, in easing the symptoms of Rheumatism. Some people find added benefit when magnets are also incorporated in a copper bracelet. Traces of copper salts penetrate the skin and enter the bloodstream. In fact copper, as a dietary supplement, is often used, in conjunction with other vitamins and minerals to ease Arthritis and Rheumatism.

2nd June 2006, 08:41 PM	#14
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	How to clean a takouba?? Hello, I've just received the takouba that started the thread, and now I'm faced with the problem of cleaning it and bringing it to a descent state. The blade itself has little rust along the fuller, and I won't touch the scabbard as it is fragile. The guard area is the problem. There is a lot of gunk/glue and whatnot inside the large wound/opening, and the brass/copper shows considerable oxydation. I will attempt some gentle cleaning with lemon/lime juice and a brush, but can you suggest some more effective cleaning and preservation techniques? There is also a sort of disk under the guard which has been bent back towards the pommel, and which hinders the grip. Should I try to bend it back on the guard? Thanks and regards, Emanuel Attached Images Last edited by Manolo; 2nd June 2006 at 08:56 PM.

3rd June 2006, 08:28 PM	#15
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Repairs to crumpled sheet metal and hollow forms can be quite difficult especially sealed hollow forms. The only thing you can do where you have access is to make your own wood tools to push the metal back to its original position or as near as possible. This is how brass musical instruments are repaired after being badly dented, wood rollers are used to reform the shape. A bit like some car body work only with more finesse.

3rd June 2006, 08:52 PM	#16
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Sheet metals, especially those of the softer metals like copper are notorious for breaking when straightening a piece that is creased, (such as the disc fitted behind the guard.) If you do attempt this, my advice would be slowly and gently, perhaps using pliers to grip and lever the piece, this will give you more control. Ensure that the jaws of the pliers are protected by thickish cardboard (not corrugated), this will help prevent marking the softer metal of the 'disc.' It won't be a perfect repair, but will give a more acceptable appearance..... Hope this helps

4th June 2006, 04:30 PM	#17
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Tim, Katana, thanks for the suggestions. It looks like the guard is one piece of metal, whitish in colour, then covered in brass. Oddly enough it looks melted, as if it was squeezed by hot tongs or something. The disk makes no sense to me, and looks like a later addition, perhaps the "repair" mentioned by the seller. I imagine that an owner at some point tried to repair or change the guard in some way and, after removing it tried to glue it back on -explaining all the ugly gunk. Do any of you have info on how takoubas were traditionally constructed? How is the guard made and attached? The disk is indeed britle and I think it will snap if I try to bend it too much. Would heating it a bit help? The scabbard is made of thin planks of wood, covered in leather and two decorative brass pieces at the mouth and foot. The lower part is broken or is just leather, as it's limp and looks like it could get ripped off...

4th June 2006, 04:42 PM	#18
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Heating would make the metal more pliable. In fact heating most metals to a dull red heat and the quenching in water, makes the metal softer and more maulable ( annealing ). Obviously, if the disc is not removable, I would not recommend this at all, the heat , by conduction would surely cause problems with any soldered joints nearby.

4th June 2006, 06:20 PM	#19
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Could you recommend some sort of solvent that would disolve the excessive glue/epoxy? I'm thinking about removing the guard -if possible- cleaning everything and putting it back together.