turkish/ ottoman dagger

mavi1970 · 1st November 2007, 02:40 PM

Hi again, another addition to the growing collection. Only problem is that no date or markings present on any portion of dagger. Just wondering if anyone has any ideas of age and area of origin other than that of the turkish/ottoman empire. length is 15" in total and blade is 8" in length.
thanks

rand · 1st November 2007, 09:05 PM

Is always difficult to estimate age but can offer an opinion.

On the throat of the scabbard is a braided silver wire with a small section missing. This type of braided wire decoration have seen on scabbards from 1770 -1860, the time period could be larger.

The chape section near the tip appears to have an additional section just for the tip, not sure as the photo can be misleading, but if it is the case would hint at first part of 19th century.

If the tip does not have an additional covering would tend to think a little later dating is probable.

Looks as if the dagger has a false edge near the edge, that would be something you don't see often on Turkish daggers.

The designs on the silverwork look very Ottoman with shallow repoussee symetrical vegetal designs.

Are there any remnants of a gold wash on the silver?

Would not be surprised if the blade was some type of pattern weld.

Dry Roads,

rand

ALEX · 2nd November 2007, 10:22 AM

Rand, this is very nice and knowledgeable opinion!
Somehow I feel it is of Balkan Ottoman origin, mid 19C. I'd call it a "card". I've handled several similar cards before, and 90% of those had damascus blades. I also had not seen similar false edge on these types of daggers.

rand · 2nd November 2007, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Rand, this is very nice and knowledgeable opinion!
Somehow I feel it is of Balkan Ottoman origin, mid 19C. I'd call it a "card". I've handled several similar cards before, and 90% of those had damascus blades. I also had not seen similar false edge on these types of daggers.

Hey Alex,

This dagger being Balkan is a possibility, would line up with mid 19th dating if chape is one piece instead of two seperate pieces. There is quite a bit of wear on the scabbards throat near where blade enters which indicates use over a period of time, also the velvet covering the scabbard is pretty much worn down to its base layer.

Am curious, is ther anything in particular that made you think Balkan?

rand

Valjhun · 3rd November 2007, 01:12 AM

I vote for Greece

Yannis · 6th November 2007, 08:11 PM

It could be Greek. If so, it could be from late 19th century to 1980. I cannot tell from the photos.
Do not be surprised for the recent date. The work is very poor for early 19th century. The silversmiths used to make these knifes for locals till WWII and for tourists after that.

ALEX · 7th November 2007, 09:04 AM

Thank you Yannis. You've read my mind:-) I second your opinion. I initially thought Albanian, with Balkan as general direction.
Rand, I just guessed Balkan...just a feeling. The workmanship, as Yannis mentioned, is of fairly poor quality, and the half-T-eared hilt tip is more common on Balkan daggers than on Turkish ones (IMHO). And that false edge, not too Turkish either.

mavi1970 · 8th November 2007, 01:16 PM

So how much in certainty would this be a recently made dagger? The chasing and other parts seems to be mid to late 19th century, but the blade has always been the item that caused me to believe that it was possibly mated to old. new or newer blade to old handle sheath.

Yannis · 8th November 2007, 06:14 PM

Mavi, only if I could hold it I could say more. You have experience, and if you say the blade is old I am sure it is.

The artwork is always the tricky part of age estimation. We use to see great quality from old masters and lower quality from recent ones. But did all the early 19th c. workshops were good? I dont know.

1st November 2007, 02:40 PM	#1
mavi1970 Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canada Posts: 90	turkish/ ottoman dagger Hi again, another addition to the growing collection. Only problem is that no date or markings present on any portion of dagger. Just wondering if anyone has any ideas of age and area of origin other than that of the turkish/ottoman empire. length is 15" in total and blade is 8" in length. thanks Attached Images

1st November 2007, 09:05 PM	#2
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Ottoman Dagger Is always difficult to estimate age but can offer an opinion. On the throat of the scabbard is a braided silver wire with a small section missing. This type of braided wire decoration have seen on scabbards from 1770 -1860, the time period could be larger. The chape section near the tip appears to have an additional section just for the tip, not sure as the photo can be misleading, but if it is the case would hint at first part of 19th century. If the tip does not have an additional covering would tend to think a little later dating is probable. Looks as if the dagger has a false edge near the edge, that would be something you don't see often on Turkish daggers. The designs on the silverwork look very Ottoman with shallow repoussee symetrical vegetal designs. Are there any remnants of a gold wash on the silver? Would not be surprised if the blade was some type of pattern weld. Dry Roads, rand

2nd November 2007, 10:22 AM	#3
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 935	Rand, this is very nice and knowledgeable opinion! Somehow I feel it is of Balkan Ottoman origin, mid 19C. I'd call it a "card". I've handled several similar cards before, and 90% of those had damascus blades. I also had not seen similar false edge on these types of daggers.

3rd November 2007, 01:12 AM	#5
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	I vote for Greece

6th November 2007, 08:11 PM	#6
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	It could be Greek. If so, it could be from late 19th century to 1980. I cannot tell from the photos. Do not be surprised for the recent date. The work is very poor for early 19th century. The silversmiths used to make these knifes for locals till WWII and for tourists after that.

7th November 2007, 09:04 AM	#7
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 935	Thank you Yannis. You've read my mind:-) I second your opinion. I initially thought Albanian, with Balkan as general direction. Rand, I just guessed Balkan...just a feeling. The workmanship, as Yannis mentioned, is of fairly poor quality, and the half-T-eared hilt tip is more common on Balkan daggers than on Turkish ones (IMHO). And that false edge, not too Turkish either.

8th November 2007, 01:16 PM	#8
mavi1970 Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canada Posts: 90	So how much in certainty would this be a recently made dagger? The chasing and other parts seems to be mid to late 19th century, but the blade has always been the item that caused me to believe that it was possibly mated to old. new or newer blade to old handle sheath.

8th November 2007, 06:14 PM	#9
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Mavi, only if I could hold it I could say more. You have experience, and if you say the blade is old I am sure it is. The artwork is always the tricky part of age estimation. We use to see great quality from old masters and lower quality from recent ones. But did all the early 19th c. workshops were good? I dont know.