Kris Sumatra or Malay?

Jean · 19th April 2013, 09:52 AM

Dear friends,
This kris belongs to a friend and is supposed to be of Minangkabau origin according to the seller.
However there are several indicators that this may not be the case: the shape of the blade and sampir, the style and decoration of the pendok, and the style of Jawa Demam hilt. The blade was cleaned and stained in Solo and revealed some unexpected pamor. Any opinion about its origin will be welcome.

Best regards

Sajen · 19th April 2013, 10:26 AM

Hello Jean,

also when the blade have a Malay influence/touch I think that it is a Minang keris, pendokok is Minang, the handle and sheath as well IMHO. Can show you a pendokok from a Minang keris from my collection which is very similar when you wish.
BTW, very nice and interesting keris.

Kind regards,

Detlef

Jean · 19th April 2013, 12:54 PM

Hello Detlef,
Thank you for your opinion. Regarding the pendokok, I did not comment about it because these pieces are common and from the pictures the cup seems to be made from silver but the bottom ring from plated copper?
Best regards
Jean

henri · 20th April 2013, 03:20 AM

Hello Jean ,

I have a blade with some similarities but no pamor . I still think the blade could be Malay Peninsula .

A. G. Maisey · 20th April 2013, 06:02 AM

Henri's keris has an upwards pointing triangular form in the sorsoran.

Does anybody know what this is --- maybe even why its there?

Gustav · 20th April 2013, 09:49 AM

Alan, I don't know what it is, yet the examples I have seen with this feature are either Sumatran Straits dressed or are Malayan Sundangs:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14292

I thought about this feature, it could be a little bit easyer way to give sorsoran a shape without cutting out the sogokan. The other influence (via Sundang) could perhaps be the exagerated Janur/even more exagerated Bawang Sebungkul sometimes seen on Moro krisses. Actually even Jeans keris is slightly going in this direction. On Henry's keris the Blumbangan has almost disappeared, yet I still see the hint.

Jean · 20th April 2013, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Henri's keris has an upwards pointing triangular form in the sorsoran.

Does anybody know what this is --- maybe even why its there?

I don't know but am just guessing, does it symbolize Gunung Meru?

Regards

henri · 22nd April 2013, 03:45 AM

After some research here is was I found .

This keris is into my collection since more than 2 years ... and not expecting to learn more ( even if it is not the right approach ) ! Thank you Alan .

The triangle (trikona) is the symbol of Shakti, the feminine energy or aspect of Creation. The triangle pointing down represents the yoni, the feminine sexual organ and the symbol of the supreme source of the Universe, and when the triangle is pointing upwards it signifies intense spiritual aspiration, the sublimation of one's nature into the most subtle planes and the element of fire (Agni Tattva). The fire is always oriented upwards, thus the correlation with the upward triangle - Shiva kona. On the other hand, the downward pointing triangle signifies the element of water which always tends to flown and occupy the lowest possible position. This triangle is known as Shakti kona.

Kind regards

Henri

A. G. Maisey · 22nd April 2013, 06:58 AM

We are looking at an up pointing triangle, thus we are looking at a symbol of Shiva.

The upward triangle does not represent three deities, it represents one:- Shiva, or as the Javanese have it, Siwa.

The downward triangle represents the female force, but we are not looking at downwards pointing triangle, we are looking at an upwards pointing one.

OK, we've made a start, you've got your hand on the door-knob.

Now turn it and open the door by thinking and making a few connections.

This door actually brings you into the room about halfway along, turn one way and you go back in time, turn the other and you go forward in time.

A lot of things happened before Siwa got into the act.

DAHenkel · 13th May 2013, 08:18 AM

To briefly interrupt the thread of the conversation, I wanted to address the question of the origin of the keris which are a part of the conversation. Both, I feel, come from the area of Sumatra known to the Minangkabau as the "Pasisiah", that is, the intermediary region to the east of the highland core of Minangkabau territory. This is a fascinating hinterland area made up of large parts of what are today Jambi and mainland Riau (traditionally ruled from Siak (Indrapura). The area is a patchwork of Minangkabau, Malay and Bugis origin communities and the keris which come from this area show the complex interplay of influences from all three communities. It is almost impossible to say much of anything specific about the pieces beyond that. Jean's piece is more distinctly Minangkabau in that it mirrors the styles of the heartlands (Agam, Batu Sangkar, Solok etc.) and Henri's is more Malay/Bugis (which by the time these keris were made were largely indistinguishable). A great deal of further research needs to be done on this region before anything distinct can be said about their keris. However, to get a better sense of the immense complexity of the area and of Sumatra in general I'd recommend a couple of interesting reads...one is To Live as Brothers by Barbara Watson Andaya and the other is Leaves of the Same Tree by her husband, Leonard Andaya. Neither says anything about keris but they both give a great sense of the extraordinary interplay of cultures and communities within the region.

Jean · 13th May 2013, 06:30 PM

Thank you very much Dave for this very informative post. If you have other typical specimens of krisses from this region to show, they will be welcome!

Regards

Sajen · 14th May 2013, 05:06 PM

Hello Jean,

have a look to this link: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=jambi

I believe that this keris is from the same area.

Regards,

Detlef

19th April 2013, 09:52 AM	#1
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Kris Sumatra or Malay? Dear friends, This kris belongs to a friend and is supposed to be of Minangkabau origin according to the seller. However there are several indicators that this may not be the case: the shape of the blade and sampir, the style and decoration of the pendok, and the style of Jawa Demam hilt. The blade was cleaned and stained in Solo and revealed some unexpected pamor. Any opinion about its origin will be welcome. Best regards Attached Images

20th April 2013, 03:20 AM	#4
henri Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Australia Posts: 81	Hello Jean , I have a blade with some similarities but no pamor . I still think the blade could be Malay Peninsula . Attached Images

20th April 2013, 09:49 AM	#6
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,196	Alan, I don't know what it is, yet the examples I have seen with this feature are either Sumatran Straits dressed or are Malayan Sundangs: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14292 I thought about this feature, it could be a little bit easyer way to give sorsoran a shape without cutting out the sogokan. The other influence (via Sundang) could perhaps be the exagerated Janur/even more exagerated Bawang Sebungkul sometimes seen on Moro krisses. Actually even Jeans keris is slightly going in this direction. On Henry's keris the Blumbangan has almost disappeared, yet I still see the hint. Last edited by Gustav; 20th April 2013 at 10:48 AM.

22nd April 2013, 03:45 AM	#8
henri Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Australia Posts: 81	Triangle After some research here is was I found . This keris is into my collection since more than 2 years ... and not expecting to learn more ( even if it is not the right approach ) ! Thank you Alan . The triangle (trikona) is the symbol of Shakti, the feminine energy or aspect of Creation. The triangle pointing down represents the yoni, the feminine sexual organ and the symbol of the supreme source of the Universe, and when the triangle is pointing upwards it signifies intense spiritual aspiration, the sublimation of one's nature into the most subtle planes and the element of fire (Agni Tattva). The fire is always oriented upwards, thus the correlation with the upward triangle - Shiva kona. On the other hand, the downward pointing triangle signifies the element of water which always tends to flown and occupy the lowest possible position. This triangle is known as Shakti kona. Kind regards Henri

19th April 2013, 10:26 AM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,491	Hello Jean, also when the blade have a Malay influence/touch I think that it is a Minang keris, pendokok is Minang, the handle and sheath as well IMHO. Can show you a pendokok from a Minang keris from my collection which is very similar when you wish. BTW, very nice and interesting keris. Kind regards, Detlef

19th April 2013, 12:54 PM	#3
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Detlef, Thank you for your opinion. Regarding the pendokok, I did not comment about it because these pieces are common and from the pictures the cup seems to be made from silver but the bottom ring from plated copper? Best regards Jean

20th April 2013, 06:02 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,700	Henri's keris has an upwards pointing triangular form in the sorsoran. Does anybody know what this is --- maybe even why its there?

22nd April 2013, 06:58 AM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,700	We are looking at an up pointing triangle, thus we are looking at a symbol of Shiva. The upward triangle does not represent three deities, it represents one:- Shiva, or as the Javanese have it, Siwa. The downward triangle represents the female force, but we are not looking at downwards pointing triangle, we are looking at an upwards pointing one. OK, we've made a start, you've got your hand on the door-knob. Now turn it and open the door by thinking and making a few connections. This door actually brings you into the room about halfway along, turn one way and you go back in time, turn the other and you go forward in time. A lot of things happened before Siwa got into the act.

13th May 2013, 08:18 AM	#10
DAHenkel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 125	To briefly interrupt the thread of the conversation, I wanted to address the question of the origin of the keris which are a part of the conversation. Both, I feel, come from the area of Sumatra known to the Minangkabau as the "Pasisiah", that is, the intermediary region to the east of the highland core of Minangkabau territory. This is a fascinating hinterland area made up of large parts of what are today Jambi and mainland Riau (traditionally ruled from Siak (Indrapura). The area is a patchwork of Minangkabau, Malay and Bugis origin communities and the keris which come from this area show the complex interplay of influences from all three communities. It is almost impossible to say much of anything specific about the pieces beyond that. Jean's piece is more distinctly Minangkabau in that it mirrors the styles of the heartlands (Agam, Batu Sangkar, Solok etc.) and Henri's is more Malay/Bugis (which by the time these keris were made were largely indistinguishable). A great deal of further research needs to be done on this region before anything distinct can be said about their keris. However, to get a better sense of the immense complexity of the area and of Sumatra in general I'd recommend a couple of interesting reads...one is To Live as Brothers by Barbara Watson Andaya and the other is Leaves of the Same Tree by her husband, Leonard Andaya. Neither says anything about keris but they both give a great sense of the extraordinary interplay of cultures and communities within the region.

13th May 2013, 06:30 PM	#11
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Thank you very much Dave for this very informative post. If you have other typical specimens of krisses from this region to show, they will be welcome! Regards

14th May 2013, 05:06 PM	#12
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,491	Hello Jean, have a look to this link: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=jambi I believe that this keris is from the same area. Regards, Detlef