Stone sculpture from India

Jens Nordlunde · 10th December 2006, 02:56 PM

This picture shows a stone sculpture from the Rama Temple, Kumbakonam (South India). The sculpture is from about 1610, and it is clear to see that the figure in the middle is armed with a sword and a kris. (Robert Elgood, Hindu Arms and Ritual. Page 122, fig. 11.18).
Does anyone know of other kris' used in India?

David · 10th December 2006, 03:58 PM

Very interesting. It sure does appear to be a keris from this viewpoint. I wish we had a close-up view.
I am unaware of the keris taking hold as a weapon anywhere outside of the Malay/Indonesia area, but certainly there must have been some trade.
It does appear that the wearer of this keris has the wrong hilt orientation though.

kai · 10th December 2006, 09:26 PM

Quote:

This picture shows a stone sculpture from the Rama Temple, Kumbakonam (South India). The sculpture is from about 1610, and it is clear to see that the figure in the middle is armed with a sword and a kris. (Robert Elgood, Hindu Arms and Ritual. Page 122, fig. 11.18).

Thanks, Jens! I really need to get Elgood's book...

Is this the only currently known representation from India? Any other blades with similar hilts/scabbards? (I'm not sure this really is a keris but it's definitely the closest that I've seen so far!)

So, who is the person (or figure from the Hindu iconography?) wearing this blade? Doesn't seem to be one of Mara's minions for a change!

Regards,
Kai

Alam Shah · 10th December 2006, 10:07 PM

Hi Jens,

Interesting... The hilt and hilt cup does have resemblance to the keris, but alas, it is sheathed. Looking at the sheath profile, it looks as if the blade is single-edged. Could it be a form of an Indian Pesh Kabz dagger instead?

David · 10th December 2006, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Hi Jens,

Interesting... The hilt and hilt cup does have resemblance to the keris, but alas, it is sheathed. Looking at the sheath profile, it looks as if the blade is single-edged. Could it be a form of an Indian Pesh Kabz dagger instead?

Geez, you guys have better eyes than i do.

I think we need a field trip to this place for better photos.

A. G. Maisey · 10th December 2006, 11:00 PM

From what I can see in this image, I would not be prepared to call this weapon at the waist of the figure a keris.

However, if it were, it would not surprise me, as blades from Jawa, at least, were exported into Southern India during and prior to the period associated with this staue.

BluErf · 11th December 2006, 02:04 PM

Could be a curved pesh kabz, chillanum or some other similar curved dagger with an animal-headed hilt, like those on mughal daggers?

David · 11th December 2006, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

Could be a curved pesh kabz, chillanum or some other similar curved dagger with an animal-headed hilt, like those on mughal daggers?

I agree, there is just too little info available in this photo to draw any definitive conclusions....so how about that field trip!

Jens Nordlunde · 11th December 2006, 02:44 PM

I don’t know if it is a kris, and I know far too little about the subject to even start guessing, but Robert writes so, and as he has taken the picture himself, I suppose he has had a proper look at it. Here is the picture text.
"Stone sculpture of Raghunatha Nayaka (1600-1610) with sword and kris, in the Rama Temple, Kumbakonam, built c. 1620."

We are talking about the weapon in the belt, not the one he hold in his arms - am I right?
I don't think the blade look curved, and the blade is too long and narrow to be one of the knives sugested by BluErf.
Here is another one. 'Mounted warrior with two swords at the Rama Temple, c. 1610.

David · 11th December 2006, 04:19 PM

Jens, one thing i can see in the first photo is that the blade at the waist DOES have a curve to it. It definitely curves down and seems to curve back upwards, though from the photo i can't see how far. I am sure we are all talking about the same weapon. Just because Elgood had a good look at it doesn't necessarily imply that he has properly identified it. I don't believe the keris is the focus of his study in edged weapons. Could be a keris, but just as easily it might not be.
As for the new picture, these are definitely not keris IMO. Did you mean to imply they were?

I would also like to point out the problem with drawing any solid conclusions about any weapon based on it's appearance in art. We can never be sure we are looking at an accurate depiction or even a historical accuracy for that matter. Rembrandt was known to include keris in historically inaccurate settings. Though that is less likely to happen in this case i think it illustrates a point. Art is art. Artifacts are the real thing. Artists will often approximate, exaggerate or just plain imagine an item. This isn't to say that i don't believe the keris made it's way to Southern India. In fact i think it is probably likely it did. I am just not convinced that this sculpture depicts that.

Jens Nordlunde · 11th December 2006, 05:13 PM

David,

No I did not mean to imply that the next picture shows a kris. As I have pointed out, my knowledge on krises is not so, that I neither can nor will i imply anything when it comes to krises. True we must not forget the artistic touch, but Robert shows details from the stone sculptures which are very destinct, so i think the artist has kept a close to the truce as possible - at least here.

The story goes that the Indians, in the very early times build very big ships, and sailed to many places, the Spicy islands, Japan, China, east Africa, Arabia and other countries. Later they seem to have lost the knowledge of building such big ships. They traded with the Romans, Arabs and many others. I don’t know if the story is true, but they have found a Roman ship off the Spanish coast in the Mediterranean, which could take a cargo of 400 tons, and the ship was from the second century, so it is not impossible.

Maybe krises could be found in south India, is sounds possible, but it makes me wonder why katars were not found outside India. For someone who knew how to use it, it is a very powerful weapon, and the Indians, had no doubt contact with people in far away places, so why was the katar not ‘accepted’ when the Indians, at least to a certain extend accepted weapons from other countries?

A. G. Maisey · 11th December 2006, 08:57 PM

Katars can be found in Jawa.

Construction is a little different to the construction of Indian katars, and the only ones I have seen had cross grips of wood, but these are still definitely katars.

There are some in the Keraton Surakarta collections, I think I've also seen them in the Musium Radyopustaka, and I have also come across them in the markets.

Jens Nordlunde · 12th December 2006, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Katars can be found in Jawa.

Construction is a little different to the construction of Indian katars, and the only ones I have seen had cross grips of wood, but these are still definitely katars.

There are some in the Keraton Surakarta collections, I think I've also seen them in the Musium Radyopustaka, and I have also come across them in the markets.

Is it possible that you can get a picture of such a katar? If not, can you draw one? I would be very interested in seeing one.

A. G. Maisey · 12th December 2006, 11:27 PM

I can appreciate that you would be interested in seeing one of these, Jens, but at the moment I cannot help you. I have no photos of one, and although I do have a couple , both require restoration and are currently in Solo. If I ever am able to get a photo of one I will make sure you get access to it.

Jens Nordlunde · 13th December 2006, 01:59 PM

A pity you don't have one at the moment

, but i hope you won't forget me

.

10th December 2006, 02:56 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Stone sculpture from India This picture shows a stone sculpture from the Rama Temple, Kumbakonam (South India). The sculpture is from about 1610, and it is clear to see that the figure in the middle is armed with a sword and a kris. (Robert Elgood, Hindu Arms and Ritual. Page 122, fig. 11.18). Does anyone know of other kris' used in India? Attached Images

11th December 2006, 02:44 PM	#9
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	I don’t know if it is a kris, and I know far too little about the subject to even start guessing, but Robert writes so, and as he has taken the picture himself, I suppose he has had a proper look at it. Here is the picture text. "Stone sculpture of Raghunatha Nayaka (1600-1610) with sword and kris, in the Rama Temple, Kumbakonam, built c. 1620." We are talking about the weapon in the belt, not the one he hold in his arms - am I right? I don't think the blade look curved, and the blade is too long and narrow to be one of the knives sugested by BluErf. Here is another one. 'Mounted warrior with two swords at the Rama Temple, c. 1610. Attached Images

13th December 2006, 01:59 PM	#15
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	A pity you don't have one at the moment, but i hope you won't forget me.

10th December 2006, 03:58 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,026	Very interesting. It sure does appear to be a keris from this viewpoint. I wish we had a close-up view. I am unaware of the keris taking hold as a weapon anywhere outside of the Malay/Indonesia area, but certainly there must have been some trade. It does appear that the wearer of this keris has the wrong hilt orientation though.

10th December 2006, 10:07 PM	#4
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Hi Jens, Interesting... The hilt and hilt cup does have resemblance to the keris, but alas, it is sheathed. Looking at the sheath profile, it looks as if the blade is single-edged. Could it be a form of an Indian Pesh Kabz dagger instead?

10th December 2006, 11:00 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,700	From what I can see in this image, I would not be prepared to call this weapon at the waist of the figure a keris. However, if it were, it would not surprise me, as blades from Jawa, at least, were exported into Southern India during and prior to the period associated with this staue.

11th December 2006, 02:04 PM	#7
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Could be a curved pesh kabz, chillanum or some other similar curved dagger with an animal-headed hilt, like those on mughal daggers?

11th December 2006, 04:19 PM	#10
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,026	Jens, one thing i can see in the first photo is that the blade at the waist DOES have a curve to it. It definitely curves down and seems to curve back upwards, though from the photo i can't see how far. I am sure we are all talking about the same weapon. Just because Elgood had a good look at it doesn't necessarily imply that he has properly identified it. I don't believe the keris is the focus of his study in edged weapons. Could be a keris, but just as easily it might not be. As for the new picture, these are definitely not keris IMO. Did you mean to imply they were? I would also like to point out the problem with drawing any solid conclusions about any weapon based on it's appearance in art. We can never be sure we are looking at an accurate depiction or even a historical accuracy for that matter. Rembrandt was known to include keris in historically inaccurate settings. Though that is less likely to happen in this case i think it illustrates a point. Art is art. Artifacts are the real thing. Artists will often approximate, exaggerate or just plain imagine an item. This isn't to say that i don't believe the keris made it's way to Southern India. In fact i think it is probably likely it did. I am just not convinced that this sculpture depicts that.

11th December 2006, 05:13 PM	#11
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	David, No I did not mean to imply that the next picture shows a kris. As I have pointed out, my knowledge on krises is not so, that I neither can nor will i imply anything when it comes to krises. True we must not forget the artistic touch, but Robert shows details from the stone sculptures which are very destinct, so i think the artist has kept a close to the truce as possible - at least here. The story goes that the Indians, in the very early times build very big ships, and sailed to many places, the Spicy islands, Japan, China, east Africa, Arabia and other countries. Later they seem to have lost the knowledge of building such big ships. They traded with the Romans, Arabs and many others. I don’t know if the story is true, but they have found a Roman ship off the Spanish coast in the Mediterranean, which could take a cargo of 400 tons, and the ship was from the second century, so it is not impossible. Maybe krises could be found in south India, is sounds possible, but it makes me wonder why katars were not found outside India. For someone who knew how to use it, it is a very powerful weapon, and the Indians, had no doubt contact with people in far away places, so why was the katar not ‘accepted’ when the Indians, at least to a certain extend accepted weapons from other countries?

11th December 2006, 08:57 PM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,700	Katars can be found in Jawa. Construction is a little different to the construction of Indian katars, and the only ones I have seen had cross grips of wood, but these are still definitely katars. There are some in the Keraton Surakarta collections, I think I've also seen them in the Musium Radyopustaka, and I have also come across them in the markets.

12th December 2006, 11:27 PM	#14
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,700	I can appreciate that you would be interested in seeing one of these, Jens, but at the moment I cannot help you. I have no photos of one, and although I do have a couple , both require restoration and are currently in Solo. If I ever am able to get a photo of one I will make sure you get access to it.