Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 22nd January 2005, 04:49 PM   #1
Jens Nordlunde
Member
 
Jens Nordlunde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,478
Default Watering on a tulwar blade

I find thin kind of watering very nice.
Attached Images
 
Jens Nordlunde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd January 2005, 05:35 PM   #2
Jeff D
Member
 
Jeff D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada
Posts: 473
Default

A masterpiece Jens. I would love to see the whole talwar.

Jeff
Jeff D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd January 2005, 05:49 PM   #3
tom hyle
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Houston, TX, USA
Posts: 1,254
Default

yes, please! Don't tease us so! That's the base of the yelman? Note the fine filing marks, which seem cross-hatched at the koftgari, but unidirectional out across the blade?

Last edited by tom hyle : 22nd January 2005 at 05:50 PM. Reason: clarity
tom hyle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd January 2005, 09:07 PM   #4
Jens Nordlunde
Member
 
Jens Nordlunde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,478
Default

The whole sword
Attached Images
 
Jens Nordlunde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd January 2005, 11:31 PM   #5
Ferguson
Member
 
Ferguson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Kernersville, NC, USA
Posts: 765
Send a message via AIM to Ferguson
Default

Oh my goodness. Beautiful.

Steve
Ferguson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd January 2005, 12:37 AM   #6
tom hyle
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Houston, TX, USA
Posts: 1,254
Default

Thanks.
tom hyle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd January 2005, 01:07 AM   #7
Jeff D
Member
 
Jeff D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada
Posts: 473
Default

Thanks Jen what a treasure!


Jeff
Jeff D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd January 2005, 04:03 AM   #8
Andrew
Vikingsword Staff
 
Andrew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 1,725
Thumbs up

Outstanding! Jens, can you tell us anything about this? Have you any provenance?

Is that koftgari Arabic or Farsi?
Andrew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd January 2005, 10:29 AM   #9
Jens Nordlunde
Member
 
Jens Nordlunde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,478
Default

Hi Andrew,

This sword is what started me collecting, but unfortunately I have no provenience on it, other that I would say that it most likely is from Punjab, or maybe Rajasthan.
I don't know which language it is written in, but I have a translation from when it was exhibited at Davids Samling in Copenhagen in 1982.

Jens
Attached Images
 
Jens Nordlunde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd January 2005, 04:22 PM   #10
Yannis
Member
 
Yannis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Athens Greece
Posts: 479
Default

What a beauty!

Jens
Is this similar to kilij, with sharp edge both sides close to tip?
Is this kind of blade usual for a tulwar?
Yannis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd January 2005, 04:48 PM   #11
Jens Nordlunde
Member
 
Jens Nordlunde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,478
Default

Hi Yannis,

Yes the blade is also sharp on the false edge, and I might add that the blade is not only sharp, it is very sharp.
Interesting question your next one. It took thirty years before I saw a blade like this one on a photo. It looks exactly like mine but without decoration. The two blades are so much alike that I think they are made by the same man, and both blades made of wootz.

Jens
Attached Images
 
Jens Nordlunde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd January 2005, 05:02 PM   #12
Jeff D
Member
 
Jeff D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada
Posts: 473
Default

I have seen examples of Indian blades with this "kilij" style (curved blade with wider end and yelman), but I have only seen the yelman base work as shown in Jens original photo on Turkish blades. Jens talwar appears to be a purely 18th century Indian made tulwar, but with Turkish influence in style. I can see how this one can lead to a long and expensive road.


Jeff
Jeff D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd January 2005, 06:26 PM   #13
Jens Nordlunde
Member
 
Jens Nordlunde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,478
Default

Hi Jeff,

Can you possible show me pictures of blades like this one?
If you can, pleas do.
I was very much surprised when I saw a picture of a blade like mine two years ago. I would like to learn more about these blades, typical Indian, and very beautiful.

Jens
Jens Nordlunde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd January 2005, 06:55 PM   #14
Jeff D
Member
 
Jeff D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada
Posts: 473
Default

Hi Jen,

Here are a couple of Photo's I have on hand.

This is from Egerton Plate V.
Attached Images
 
Jeff D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd January 2005, 06:56 PM   #15
Jeff D
Member
 
Jeff D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada
Posts: 473
Default

Here are a couple in Figiel's On Damascus Steel. There are more in his catalogue which I don't have with me.
Attached Images
   
Jeff D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd January 2005, 07:01 PM   #16
Jeff D
Member
 
Jeff D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada
Posts: 473
Default

and of Course Rawson (always Rawson) The Indian Sword . Plate 2.
Attached Images
 
Jeff D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd January 2005, 07:24 PM   #17
Jens Nordlunde
Member
 
Jens Nordlunde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,478
Default

Yes you are right, but the perforatet yelman?
The picture I saw had a blade exactly like mine, the only thing was, that it was not decorated. The hilt was different in the design, but that could be due to two men buying the same type of blade, from the same smith, the one being richer than the other, so the decoration would be different.
I have Figiels book, the auction catalogue - and the prices the swords fetched:-( - chocking reading for collectors.

Regards

Jens
Jens Nordlunde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th January 2005, 08:06 PM   #18
Jim McDougall
Research Consultant
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 6,831
Default

This is one of the most incredible tulwar blades I have seen, and now that I have recovered from being completely overwhelmed, I think I can try to place some thoughts on it....this sabre is magnificent!!! gasp, onward......

The extraordinary flamboyant blade on this example naturally brings to mind the typically Timurid influenced yelman which evolved as a distinct Central Asian blade feature often seen on early Indian blades of Mughal India. This widened distal with sharpened false edge remains profoundly on the well known Turkish kilic, and is featured on the tulwar examples shown on this thread from Rawson and Figiel. It seems that in India,the yelman began to give way to the gradually radiused blade point late in the 18th c. although this cannot be assumed to be universally the case.

While this blade clearly is radically widened in the flamboyant style that is often associated with the 'scimitars' of early literature and art, and the form is typically regarded as 'oriental' , I think the influence of this blade has other origins.

The trade presence of Italy, in particular Venice, is well known not only in India, but many key ports of call in the Dar al Islam. In a concurrent discussion pertaining to development of the sabre, we have given important reference to the medieval European form of heavy blade sabre known as the falchion. These heavy blade sabres, often with widened distal and false edge, much like our example here, were commonly known as 'storta' in Italy in the 16th and 17th centuries, and Venetian examples have surprisingly similar characteristics ("Armi Bianchi Italiene" , Boccia & Coelho, fig.501/502/503)

Another key Venetian edged weapon was the polearm with widened curved blade known as the 'fauchard' (Stone, p.280, figs 2,6,7), used typically by palace guards. On the back of the blade is an unusual decorative feature which appears as a symmetrical hook or horned profile. The same feature is seen in more elaborate and ostentatious form on one of these from the Doges palace in Venice ("Weapons" Diagram Group, p.62,#7). It is important to note that this curious affectation seems to be important on processional or palace weapons of this period in Venice, in varying form.

It would seem plausible that Italian weapons of such importance may have been known to Indian armourers through diplomatic or trade situations with important court officials, and may have influenced interpretations of such weapons. The pierced and distinctly placed feature at the choil of the false edge may be a subtle interpretation of the horned or hooked feature on the back of the palacially associated Venetian weapons.*

* it is interesting to note that a similar hooked feature appears near the hilt on the back of the blade on the Dayak 'parang' of Borneo (the feature is termed locally 'krowit' or 'kundieng'). This element apparantly serves as a finger guard, and while no direct association to the Venetian weapons is at this point suggested, it remains an interesting idea for further research.
The Venetian traders account for wide diffusion of material culture as has been often described.

Although it is clear that this example as noted, is probably from Rajasthan regions (especially as evidenced by this particular hilt), and may be related aesthetically to the sosun pattah with Hindu basket hilt, at least in blade profile (Pant. p.211)....the radically widened blade and the curious pierced feature may have distinct Venetian influence as described.

It also appears that it is an extremely rare and important example, thus not surprising others are not well known. It would be most interesting to know if anyone has seen a similar blade and would share it here.

Fantastic tulwar Jens!!! Thank you for posting it here.

With best regards,
Jim

Last edited by Jim McDougall : 24th January 2005 at 08:20 PM.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th January 2005, 09:20 PM   #19
Rivkin
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 655
Default

Unbelievable.

Btw, is it my ignorance, or the koftgari here seems to obey the rule of thirds ?
Rivkin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th January 2005, 09:26 PM   #20
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 5,997
Default

Gorgeous, makes me want to cry.
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th January 2005, 09:46 PM   #21
Jens Nordlunde
Member
 
Jens Nordlunde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,478
Default

Thank you for the kind words, could I send a very big picture, you would be able to see that the koftgeri scratches covers an area quite bigger than the decoration and this have always made me wonder why, why make the scratches so much bigger?

Jens
Jens Nordlunde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th January 2005, 09:52 PM   #22
B.I
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 486
Default

yes jens, a piece that truly demands respect.
jim, a great assessment as always. the piece harbours all the asthetics of northern india in the 18thC, and yet the blade shape seems to be remeniscent of an much earlier period. the late 16thC miniatures lavishly depict the 'transitional' tulwar, developed from the infusion of the persianised, turkic culture of the moghul inheritance with the raw, earthy hindu culture. these blades seemed to mostly hold long blades with a pronounced curve and a definate yemen. these were shown alongside the clearer 'persian' hilt and the influence is very apparant (ie the blades were almost the same). although the moghul emperor gathered the best artisans of the time (norht and south), whether from his own culture or of the one one existed in the lands he conquered, the development was different in the south. the late 16thC deccani miniatures, which clearly ignore the moghul influence, clearly show the curved tulwar with the 'common' tulwar blade, dating as early as the mid 16thC.
the moghul blade seemed to develop into the tulwar we know more commonly throughout the next few hundred years. and yet this piece seems to hail more from this earlier period and i wonder if it was a meant as a 'revival' sword. a blade made to show the history of the culture, rather than show the fashion of the times. just a guess. either way, its clearly obvious that the blade is of high quality. the hilt and inscription seem of a slightly later date. the pics attached here aid this supposition, as its clear the blade is of the same workshop, but the gold work is a lot thinner and not of the same quality. nor is the hilt. i do not mean modern, but not of the same time (possible late 18th/early 19th redecoration).
i have seen a third a few years ago in a friends shop, with the same blade. this piece was better overall than the one i show here, but still not upto jens' piece. the blade was of quality but the hilt was not as good.
without a doubt jens, made for a very important person and now in very good hands
Attached Images
  
B.I is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th January 2005, 10:05 PM   #23
B.I
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 486
Default

jens,
a few questions -
on the 'bird-like' design on the yemen, the highlighted bird and the islamic script seem to be different colours. is this the flash of your camera, or are they of different coloured gold (sometimes done on higher brade pieces to give contrast).
the hilt, how is the gold put on. is the floral relief steel, highlighted in gold. is it copper inlayed and gilt? i doubt it could be gold inlay as the relief seems very high, and so the amount of gold needed would be tremendous.
a weak magnet would tell whether a non-ferrous metal was inlayed under the gold, or any wear on the gold may offer a clue. i would guess it was well chisselled steel overlayed in gold but only you can tell. the more you look at the hilt, the more intriguing it becomes. the blade is of such quality that you tend to almost forget the hilt, which easily seems of the same grade in quality.
B.I is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th January 2005, 03:33 AM   #24
Jeff D
Member
 
Jeff D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada
Posts: 473
Default

Hi Jim,

Venetian? I was thinking more along these flourishes seen on 18th century Turkish kilics, as seen on a recent aquisition of mine below. Thank you for the references I will look into it more.

Jeff
Attached Images
 
Jeff D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th January 2005, 01:43 PM   #25
Jens Nordlunde
Member
 
Jens Nordlunde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,478
Default

Hi Jim,
When you cover a thread, you always cover the whole area, with references and all thank you very much.

Then to the questions. The decoration on the yelman is made in the same gold colour as the writing.
Armed with a magnet and a magnifying glass, it is obvious to the onlooker, me, that the hilt is made of steel, cut in relief, hammered very finely to get a rough surface, covered in thick gold leaf, which have been hammered to the surface, in this cast the maker has used quite a lot of gold. There is no copper on the hilt. On the disc you can see where a thick piece of gold wire is missing. Have a look at the attached.

It is a nice blade you are showing Jeff, although I suppose it is longer.
Attached Images
 
Jens Nordlunde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th January 2005, 02:19 PM   #26
tom hyle
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Houston, TX, USA
Posts: 1,254
Default

Is that an applied spine, Jeff? Does it appear to be soldered or welded to the blade, or to be ground and chiselled from a thicked piece that was wrapped around the spine and welded? Can you tell? Nice. This has been a real good thread for photos. I think the yelman in Europe and the Yelman in Hind are both coming from Tartaric influence.
tom hyle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th January 2005, 03:27 PM   #27
Jeff D
Member
 
Jeff D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada
Posts: 473
Default

Hi Jens,

I will post the entire sword when I get it back from Philip, I don't want to distract from this great thread of yours.
Tom, it is definitely ground and chiseled, as mentioned I will post it this summer after it has been repolished.

Jeff
Jeff D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th January 2005, 07:49 PM   #28
Jens Nordlunde
Member
 
Jens Nordlunde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,478
Default

Thank you for your interest Jeff.
One more thing, which I have not mentioned before is, that the blade is sharp - very sharp. When cleaning it I have cut muself a few times, although I knew I had to be careful.
Jens Nordlunde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th January 2005, 10:19 PM   #29
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 5,997
Default

Sorry for getting in on this so late. Jens, one of the reasons I can see someone scratching an area more than "needed" is that as one hits metal, especially like gold or silver (or even brass) the metal expands horizontally. Precise lining of a border is nearly impossible for the old techniques (and even today) of inlay and koftgari. As it expands, you would want all of the precious metal to catch in as many grooves as possible and thus lessen the chance of comming out later. Also, these were done by hand and some impression is to be expected, so any metal that wondered slightly out of the original plan is covered by extra grooves just in case.
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th January 2005, 03:31 AM   #30
Jim McDougall
Research Consultant
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 6,831
Default

Brian and Jens, thank you for the kind notes!

Jeff, extremely nice blade features on the kilic you show. You are right, these Ottoman kilic typically have very profound fluorishes and accented features in the blade, which as previously noted often focus on the prominant yelman.
These examples typically date from 18th century onward, and it seems these more flamboyant decorative elements in the blade and weapon overall are characteristic of many ,if not most Central Asian edged weapons.

The Venetian, and actually also Brescian falchions/storta that I was considering are mostly of the 16th century, and Tom brings in a very valid point. Could these elaborately flourished blades have been inspired by Central Asian designs and styles that were found within the Ottoman sphere and certainly seen in the constant warfare between these cultural spheres? It would seem quite probably.

This brings this conundrum to an interesting position, was this particular flourish or flamboyant blade design the result of indirect and diffused influence from Central Asian forms via the weapons of Italian armourers and direct trade contact, or from weapons of Central Asia directly via the Mughal courts? Brian's suggestion that this may be a revival type form, especially created for wealthy and important individuals for presentation is also keenly placed.

As always, all points must be considered as further discussion continues.

Best regards,
Jim
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 07:53 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.