Origin of the Tombak?

Bill M · 2nd August 2010, 11:35 PM

It seems appropriate that I ask here with the Indonesian crowd. I am researching Tombaks for a museum exhibit and find little information compared to keris.

So I thought to begin a thread on Tombaks.

Appreciate your input.

khalifah muda · 3rd August 2010, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

It seems appropriate that I ask here with the Indonesian crowd. I am researching Tombaks for a museum exhibit and find little information compared to keris.

So I thought to begin a thread on Tombaks.

Appreciate your input.

A good topic. Like to know too. Tombaks in Bahasa - Spears is English do exist all over the world, America, African, Europe, Romans, Persians, Asia (Indo-China, China, Japan, Korea), the Malay Archipelago, Aborigines.

KuKulzA28 · 3rd August 2010, 12:50 PM

Good idea for a topic. All I know is that they're called tombak and lembing for spears... and that oftentimes these spears are put on dagger handles or short shafts... but I guess they were once supposed to be on actual spear shafts. In the old days, the spear, shield, and side-arm was the warrior's weapon. Today's Silat focuses a lot more on unarmed techniques, goloks, pisau, etc., but in the olden days, a spear was one of the universal weapons of the battlefield.

That's the extent of my knowledge...

Bill M · 3rd August 2010, 04:28 PM

So, is a lembing a tombak on a long shaft? Or is it a spear?

Most of the short-shaft Tombaks I own have pamor.

I have three long shaft and they don't seem to have pamor, though I could clean and stain them to be sure. They do have scabbards.

We have a lot of literature on keris, but very little on Tombaks, yet it would seem that Tombaks have religious significance from the care taken to make the blades. Something more than just weapons.

KuKulzA28 · 3rd August 2010, 05:49 PM

I think lembing and tombaks are both spears, but different types.. I think that lembing tend to have a central ridge and be thinner (better for stabs) and tombaks tend to be broader. I am under the impression that these are spear-heads... which can be mounted as daggers or on spear-shafts...

I hope I'm helpful, but I eagerly await the responses of the experts...

tunggulametung · 3rd August 2010, 07:55 PM

From my understanding lembing generally have a shorter shaft, and meant to be thrown while tombak have a longer shaft and use for closer combat. The note from malaysian wikipedia mention that tombak generally has a wider blade. But as long as I understand nowdays people just call it tombak and never lembing

As for tombak, probably one of the most popular is Tombak Kyai Pleret (google should give more than enough information on this)
It classified as wesi aji, the precious steel.
But any cutting knife (and steel in general) seems to be "precious" in the past, at least it still celebrated in Bali (Tumpak Landep ceremony).
Attached is photo from KITLV website but I forget the caption. It shows many fighter with tombak in the background.

tunggulametung · 3rd August 2010, 08:29 PM

A shorter explanation to my reply above

:
tombak = spear
lembing = javelin

kai · 5th August 2010, 02:02 AM

Hello Bill,

From a Javanese perspective any spear with a methuk at the base of the blade qualifies as a tombak (no methuk - no tombak); the methuk can be forged seperately or being integral like keris blades with gonjo iras. OTOH, the name tombak apparently spread into many languages across the archipelago and is locally being used for spears which don't follow the Javanese construction/definition.

AFAIK, the Javanese custom of keeping tombak blades on a shortened pole is a relatively recent development for convenient storage of a weapon which has become obsolete during the colonial period. While this custom can be expected to spread, I find that most peoples on surrounding islands still prefer keeping their heirloom spears at full length...

And, yes, being probably the first dedicated weapon of mankind, spears do end up becoming heirlooms as well as status symbols quite commonly. However, beside keris, many other types of swords and local blade types can become pusaka (including royal heirlooms).

Regards,
Kai

VANDOO · 5th August 2010, 08:05 PM

I HAVE SEEN THE DAGGERS WITH THE PARMOR SPEAR BLADES REFERRED TO AS TOMBAK, IS IT THE CORRECT NAME OR IS THERE A BETTER NAME FOR THEM

AS TO HOW THE DAGGER MADE USING AN OLD SPEAR BLADE ORIGINATED PERHAPS IT WAS BECAUSE AN OCUPING FORIGN POWER PASSED LAWS FORBIDDING SPEARS BEING CARRIED INTO TOWN. OR IT MAY HAVE COME ABOUT AT A LATER DATE WHEN SPEARS WERE NO LONGER CARRIED AS GUNS WERE BEING USED.
I AM INCLUDING A PICTURE OF THE PHILIPPINE DAGGER SPEAR, THE SHAFT COULD BE REMOVED FROM THE SOCKET IN THE HANDLE AND CARRIED INTO TOWN LEGALLY AS A DAGGER. THERE ARE PICTURES OF 4 TOMBAK DAGGERS AS WELL. AS USUAL THE PICTURES I AM INCLUDING ARE FROM OTHER SOURCES THANKS TO ANY MEMBER WHO MAY HAVE ORIGINALLY POSTED THE PICTURES.

kai · 5th August 2010, 10:51 PM

Hello Barry,

Quote:

I HAVE SEEN THE DAGGERS WITH THE PARMOR SPEAR BLADES REFERRED TO AS TOMBAK, IS IT THE CORRECT NAME OR IS THERE A BETTER NAME FOR THEM

If the blades have a metuk, they certainly qualify as tombak reagardless of the fittings. I'd stipulate that the pics show modern fittings though.

High-contrast pamor is often seen in Javanese spear blades but not all tombak exhibit this feature.

Quote:

OR IT MAY HAVE COME ABOUT AT A LATER DATE WHEN SPEARS WERE NO LONGER CARRIED AS GUNS WERE BEING USED.

Yes, just convenient storage after becoming obsolete as weapons. I can't remember having seen an antique example mounted as a dagger though.

Quote:

I AM INCLUDING A PICTURE OF THE PHILIPPINE DAGGER SPEAR,

Hinalung: http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/ifugao/index.html

Regards,
Kai

kai · 6th August 2010, 08:10 AM

I've been kindly corrected that the name tombak is applied to any kind of spear (even without any metal tip) by Javanese, too.

Regards,
Kai

VANDOO · 6th August 2010, 03:07 PM

THANKS FOR THE INFORMATION KAI

I HAVE SEEN QUITE A FEW SPEAR BLADES THAT ARE IN VARIOUS INTERESTING FORMS, ARE THEY CEREMONIAL. I ALSO WONDER IF THEY WOULD BE REFERED TO AS TOMBAK OR WOULD HAVE ANOTHER NAME DESCRIBING THEM.

PICTURES OF A NICELY STAINED TOMBAK, AND PICTURES OF VARIOUS FORMS OF SPEAR FROM JAVA.

BigG · 8th August 2010, 06:04 AM

From what I have seen of samples in the hands of M'sian & S'porean collectors & based on my discussion wth pthers here, there is a lcear distinction of a Tombak (Spear) and a Lembing (Javelin) amongst the malays ofthe peninsula & perhaps in Sumatra too. Where such distinctions may not be apparent from the Javanese perspectiv.

The Malay Tombak appears to be broader of blade. It may take the classic diamond pattern with an elongated tip or a more rectangular appearance at the mid section before it tapers to a sharp end. Lembing blades appear to be slimmer and has a more aerodynamic appearance. The blade generally do not conform to the diamond form found for the tombak. both may or may not have a spine...

The shaft of the tombak is also generally thicker, rigid and more substantial in appearnce. It has a more regular parallel appearance through out its length with metallic counterweights found at the butt end. The lembing shaft on the other hand are more slimmer. Its construction tapering towards the but end... some what like a very slim n elongated coke bottle... Unlike a tombak shaft which are usually plane... the malay lembing shaft at times have very well crafted forms running throughout its length. Its shaft appears to be segmented and has fine standing lines carved around each segment. Lembing shaft doesnt appear to have any counter weight or if they do, this appears to be more like a decorative metallic sleeve at the butt...

I hope those wth samples that I have described wld show this egs as I have none of my own for a more easier visual reference.

Rick · 8th August 2010, 03:43 PM

Welcome to the Forums BigG .

Here's another spear head for consideration; the Metuk is a separate piece .

BigG · 8th August 2010, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Welcome to the Forums BigG .

Thnx for the welcome Rick...

Will try to get a pic eg if I can

kronckew · 8th August 2010, 06:31 PM

mine,

9.25 in. blade, 1.25 in at widest, diamond x-section, 5.25" long 3/8" round tang. not sure what 'pamor' this one would have.

Rick · 8th August 2010, 07:35 PM

It looks like it may be an adeg (on edge) style of pamor .

Bill M · 9th August 2010, 10:59 AM

Thanks, all. Good info.

khalifah muda · 16th August 2010, 05:44 PM

Another fine example:

Rick · 16th August 2010, 11:12 PM

Couple more; one smooth finished and a fairly short blade; the other, recent Madura C. 1980's

BigG · 18th August 2010, 06:29 AM

It'll would be good if khalifah Muda can show his tombak stems and bases too...

khalifah muda · 19th August 2010, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigG

It'll would be good if khalifah Muda can show his tombak stems and bases too...

Well BigG, the base and stem is just a normal finish, no frills or brass fittings.

BigG · 29th August 2010, 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by khalifah muda

Well BigG, the base and stem is just a normal finish, no frills or brass fittings.

The shape of the stem is what I am looking for.. If only Jentayu would show pics of his excellent collection of Malay tombaks & lembings especialy their decorative features on the stems and the shapes of those stems..

katana · 25th September 2010, 06:20 PM

Hi Bill,
I am wondering whether this has anything to do with the naming of Tombaks..........

".....Tombac, as spelled in French, or Tombak is a brass alloy with high copper content and 5-20% zinc content..............The term tombak derives from the Javanese derived Indonesian (erroneously termed Malay) word tembaga- meaning copper. Tembaga entered Dutch usage concurrent with their colonisation of Indonesia (see Dutch East Indies). Likely, the term was used generically to describe Indonesian high-copper brass items, including gamelan gongs. It is one of the very few Indonesian or Malay loan words used in English, German or Dutch.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tombac

Perhaps, its simply due to brass decoration

Kind Regards David

Bill M · 26th September 2010, 01:04 AM

David, can't quite make the jump. Copper?

Sajen · 26th September 2010, 03:23 PM

Here my tombaks. The first two are from Java and the third one I think from Bali.

katana · 26th September 2010, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill M

David, can't quite make the jump. Copper?

Hi Bill

,
I was researching brass/bronze alloys and came across this information. Because of the linguistist use of 'tombak' (Javanese)to describe this alloy, I thought I would include it here......the reasoning is, that from I can see, there seems to be no definitive description of what makes a tombak different to a lembing. A number of formites believe that a tombak, by definition has methuk ....which are, in my very limited experience, often made from a brass like alloy.....perhaps this was more common in earlier times....and as a descriptive term tombak was used to describe a spear with methuk....perhaps, for instance they could have been originally called a tombak lembing / lembing tombak ....which was gradually shortened to just tombak.

It was just a though.....which may or may not 'create' other avenues for discussion.

All the best
Regards David

2nd August 2010, 11:35 PM	#1
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Origin of the Tombak? It seems appropriate that I ask here with the Indonesian crowd. I am researching Tombaks for a museum exhibit and find little information compared to keris. So I thought to begin a thread on Tombaks. Appreciate your input. Last edited by Bill Marsh; 2nd August 2010 at 11:53 PM.

3rd August 2010, 07:55 PM	#6
tunggulametung Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 238	From my understanding lembing generally have a shorter shaft, and meant to be thrown while tombak have a longer shaft and use for closer combat. The note from malaysian wikipedia mention that tombak generally has a wider blade. But as long as I understand nowdays people just call it tombak and never lembing As for tombak, probably one of the most popular is Tombak Kyai Pleret (google should give more than enough information on this) It classified as wesi aji, the precious steel. But any cutting knife (and steel in general) seems to be "precious" in the past, at least it still celebrated in Bali (Tumpak Landep ceremony). Attached is photo from KITLV website but I forget the caption. It shows many fighter with tombak in the background. Attached Images

5th August 2010, 08:05 PM	#9
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I HAVE SEEN THE DAGGERS WITH THE PARMOR SPEAR BLADES REFERRED TO AS TOMBAK, IS IT THE CORRECT NAME OR IS THERE A BETTER NAME FOR THEM AS TO HOW THE DAGGER MADE USING AN OLD SPEAR BLADE ORIGINATED PERHAPS IT WAS BECAUSE AN OCUPING FORIGN POWER PASSED LAWS FORBIDDING SPEARS BEING CARRIED INTO TOWN. OR IT MAY HAVE COME ABOUT AT A LATER DATE WHEN SPEARS WERE NO LONGER CARRIED AS GUNS WERE BEING USED. I AM INCLUDING A PICTURE OF THE PHILIPPINE DAGGER SPEAR, THE SHAFT COULD BE REMOVED FROM THE SOCKET IN THE HANDLE AND CARRIED INTO TOWN LEGALLY AS A DAGGER. THERE ARE PICTURES OF 4 TOMBAK DAGGERS AS WELL. AS USUAL THE PICTURES I AM INCLUDING ARE FROM OTHER SOURCES THANKS TO ANY MEMBER WHO MAY HAVE ORIGINALLY POSTED THE PICTURES. Attached Images Last edited by Lew; 8th August 2010 at 04:19 PM.

6th August 2010, 03:07 PM	#12
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THANKS FOR THE INFORMATION KAI I HAVE SEEN QUITE A FEW SPEAR BLADES THAT ARE IN VARIOUS INTERESTING FORMS, ARE THEY CEREMONIAL. I ALSO WONDER IF THEY WOULD BE REFERED TO AS TOMBAK OR WOULD HAVE ANOTHER NAME DESCRIBING THEM. PICTURES OF A NICELY STAINED TOMBAK, AND PICTURES OF VARIOUS FORMS OF SPEAR FROM JAVA. Attached Images

8th August 2010, 06:04 AM	#13
BigG Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Singapore Posts: 75	The Peninsula Malay Perspective From what I have seen of samples in the hands of M'sian & S'porean collectors & based on my discussion wth pthers here, there is a lcear distinction of a Tombak (Spear) and a Lembing (Javelin) amongst the malays ofthe peninsula & perhaps in Sumatra too. Where such distinctions may not be apparent from the Javanese perspectiv. The Malay Tombak appears to be broader of blade. It may take the classic diamond pattern with an elongated tip or a more rectangular appearance at the mid section before it tapers to a sharp end. Lembing blades appear to be slimmer and has a more aerodynamic appearance. The blade generally do not conform to the diamond form found for the tombak. both may or may not have a spine... The shaft of the tombak is also generally thicker, rigid and more substantial in appearnce. It has a more regular parallel appearance through out its length with metallic counterweights found at the butt end. The lembing shaft on the other hand are more slimmer. Its construction tapering towards the but end... some what like a very slim n elongated coke bottle... Unlike a tombak shaft which are usually plane... the malay lembing shaft at times have very well crafted forms running throughout its length. Its shaft appears to be segmented and has fine standing lines carved around each segment. Lembing shaft doesnt appear to have any counter weight or if they do, this appears to be more like a decorative metallic sleeve at the butt... I hope those wth samples that I have described wld show this egs as I have none of my own for a more easier visual reference.

3rd August 2010, 12:50 PM	#3
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Good idea for a topic. All I know is that they're called tombak and lembing for spears... and that oftentimes these spears are put on dagger handles or short shafts... but I guess they were once supposed to be on actual spear shafts. In the old days, the spear, shield, and side-arm was the warrior's weapon. Today's Silat focuses a lot more on unarmed techniques, goloks, pisau, etc., but in the olden days, a spear was one of the universal weapons of the battlefield. That's the extent of my knowledge...

3rd August 2010, 04:28 PM	#4
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	So, is a lembing a tombak on a long shaft? Or is it a spear? Most of the short-shaft Tombaks I own have pamor. I have three long shaft and they don't seem to have pamor, though I could clean and stain them to be sure. They do have scabbards. We have a lot of literature on keris, but very little on Tombaks, yet it would seem that Tombaks have religious significance from the care taken to make the blades. Something more than just weapons.

3rd August 2010, 05:49 PM	#5
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	I think lembing and tombaks are both spears, but different types.. I think that lembing tend to have a central ridge and be thinner (better for stabs) and tombaks tend to be broader. I am under the impression that these are spear-heads... which can be mounted as daggers or on spear-shafts... I hope I'm helpful, but I eagerly await the responses of the experts...

3rd August 2010, 08:29 PM	#7
tunggulametung Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 238	A shorter explanation to my reply above : tombak = spear lembing = javelin

5th August 2010, 02:02 AM	#8
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,218	Hello Bill, From a Javanese perspective any spear with a methuk at the base of the blade qualifies as a tombak (no methuk - no tombak); the methuk can be forged seperately or being integral like keris blades with gonjo iras. OTOH, the name tombak apparently spread into many languages across the archipelago and is locally being used for spears which don't follow the Javanese construction/definition. AFAIK, the Javanese custom of keeping tombak blades on a shortened pole is a relatively recent development for convenient storage of a weapon which has become obsolete during the colonial period. While this custom can be expected to spread, I find that most peoples on surrounding islands still prefer keeping their heirloom spears at full length... And, yes, being probably the first dedicated weapon of mankind, spears do end up becoming heirlooms as well as status symbols quite commonly. However, beside keris, many other types of swords and local blade types can become pusaka (including royal heirlooms). Regards, Kai

6th August 2010, 08:10 AM	#11
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,218	I've been kindly corrected that the name tombak is applied to any kind of spear (even without any metal tip) by Javanese, too. Regards, Kai

8th August 2010, 03:43 PM	#14
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Welcome to the Forums BigG . Here's another spear head for consideration; the Metuk is a separate piece . Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 8th August 2010 at 03:57 PM.

8th August 2010, 06:31 PM	#16
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,150	mine, 9.25 in. blade, 1.25 in at widest, diamond x-section, 5.25" long 3/8" round tang. not sure what 'pamor' this one would have.

8th August 2010, 07:35 PM	#17
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	It looks like it may be an adeg (on edge) style of pamor .

9th August 2010, 10:59 AM	#18
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Thanks, all. Good info.

16th August 2010, 05:44 PM	#19
khalifah muda Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Singapore Posts: 54	Another fine example: Attached Images

16th August 2010, 11:12 PM	#20
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Couple more; one smooth finished and a fairly short blade; the other, recent Madura C. 1980's Attached Images

18th August 2010, 06:29 AM	#21
BigG Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Singapore Posts: 75	It'll would be good if khalifah Muda can show his tombak stems and bases too...

25th September 2010, 06:20 PM	#24
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Bill, I am wondering whether this has anything to do with the naming of Tombaks.......... ".....Tombac, as spelled in French, or Tombak is a brass alloy with high copper content and 5-20% zinc content..............The term tombak derives from the Javanese derived Indonesian (erroneously termed Malay) word tembaga- meaning copper. Tembaga entered Dutch usage concurrent with their colonisation of Indonesia (see Dutch East Indies). Likely, the term was used generically to describe Indonesian high-copper brass items, including gamelan gongs. It is one of the very few Indonesian or Malay loan words used in English, German or Dutch. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tombac Perhaps, its simply due to brass decoration Kind Regards David

26th September 2010, 01:04 AM	#25
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	David, can't quite make the jump. Copper?

26th September 2010, 03:23 PM	#26
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,497	Here my tombaks. The first two are from Java and the third one I think from Bali. Attached Images