Old Bichwa Dagger

Lew · 17th February 2007, 06:30 PM

This arrived this week from Artzi's shop. A nice bichwa dagger with either a laminated blade or shear steel blade can't be sure though. The hilt is made of bronze and not brass as seen on most Indian daggers of this type. Let me know what you think.

Lew

DhaDha · 19th February 2007, 02:03 AM

Congrats. That is a stunning piece. Curious about the handle. How do you hold it? Your example (with the blade parallel to the hilt) seems to be held with the blade flat to the user's body. Almost like a parrying/stabbing weapon. Other examples, not unlike my new bichwa I just posted, seem to be held with edge facing the body. Hope this makes sense...
Shawn

katana · 19th February 2007, 07:23 PM

I too, am intrigued as to how this dagger was held? Seems to be specifically designed to it's 'manner' of use or perhaps suited to an individual, possibly due to a physical problem/previous damage with the owners hand

Jens Nordlunde · 19th February 2007, 09:34 PM

Nice Bichwa Lew. I think it must have been held at the upper part of the hilt, and the lower part has been the hand protection. The thing which makes me wonder, are the 'eye lashes 'on a dagger blade, so far I have only seen them on sword blades. Any comments?

katana · 19th February 2007, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Nice Bichwa Lew. I think it must have been held at the upper part of the hilt, and the lower part has been the hand protection.

Jens, I think I would have to agree, but I feel that as there is little 'bulk' to that part of the handle....control of the blade would suffer ?

Jens Nordlunde · 19th February 2007, 09:51 PM

Yes Katana, but I don't think the dagger was meant for use in war, I think it was for self protection. Besides, you did not answer my question about the 'eye lashes'.
Jens

katana · 19th February 2007, 10:28 PM

Hi Jens,
I have a Tulwar with the 'eyelash' symbol. But, like you, I have not seen one on a dagger or knife. So basically.....I don't know....was it mentioned before on the forum that the 'eyelash' was a Sikh symbol

Actually...I've just done a quick search.....here is a thread that might help

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=eyelash

And , my friend you asked a very similar question then

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

A funny thing is, that I can not recall to have seen the ‘eyelashes’ on dagger blades – can anyone else?

DhaDha · 20th February 2007, 04:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Jens, I think I would have to agree, but I feel that as there is little 'bulk' to that part of the handle....control of the blade would suffer ?

Funny, I thought it would be held by the lower part. Treating the upper as more of a knuckle duster. However, the lower might be too small. Hard for me to say having never held it. The one that I posted (and the only one I've ever held) I think is held in this manner. It actually feels great in the hand.

Lew · 20th February 2007, 04:08 AM

Hi All

I have tried holding the dagger a few ways and you can grasp it either from the top of the hilt as Jens has suggested or by holding the entire hilt. The blade seems to be made of double shear steel rather than a more complex pattern welded steel with many layers but one can't be certain of this. I just find it strange that the hilt is bronze has anyone come across these types of daggers with bronze hilts most seem to be made of brass or steel? Btw I remember seeing a kukri somewhere with the eyelash markings on it so they are not reserved strictly for swords.

Lew

Emanuel · 20th February 2007, 12:34 PM

Hello,

The eyelash mark is the gurda on Chechen/Georgiena/Caucasian shashkas, so what is it doing on Indian blades. The same mark consistently appears on tulwars as well...would this be a case of coincidence or imitation? If the latter, then in which direction?
Emanuel

Jens Nordlunde · 20th February 2007, 09:44 PM

Yes, indeed I did Katana, but I asked the question differently

.

Notice that the shark teeth sometimes are inwards and sometimes outwards – interesting. Could mean that the one making them could not remember on which side the – teeth should be, but it could also have another meaning, not known to us yet – or maybe the meaning is forgotten, but it could also be a wish to copy a known quality mark.

Jim McDougall · 25th February 2007, 09:14 PM

These trade markings, which are often termed 'sickle' marks in much of the literature on arms, are thought to derive from early markings found on the blades of Italian swords, specifically those from Genoa (see concurrent discussion on 'clunker saif'). As Jens has noted, it does not seem these have ever occurred on edged weapons other than swords. It seems to me interesting that while sword blades were often trade commodities, it does not appear that dagger or knife blades were. Although certainly daggers or knives probably diffused along the usual trade routes, they mostly appear to have done so fully mounted.
Since these 'sickle' or eyelash marks were typically added to trade blades or native made blades heralding the quality of the blade itself, such 'trade' marks are not known on daggers or knives (of course excluding talismanic or other motif or markings).

While the sickle marks are indeed found on many Caucasian blades (where they are often termed 'gurda' or 'quality' blades), the markings themselves imitate the same type markings seen on blades from Germany and Styria. These were in turn applied spuriously in imitation of the highly regarded trade blades from Italy. It seems that these sickle marks occur almost invariably on examples of the 'paluoar' typically from Afghanistan and the Northwest frontier, and of course occasionally on tulwar examples from Indian regions nearer these borders.
As far as this marking being associated with Sikhs, in research I have done in the past, I have been told that there are not any specific symbols or markings applied to weapons that are exclusive to the Sikh Faith.

Best regards,
Jim

17th February 2007, 06:30 PM	#1
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Old Bichwa Dagger This arrived this week from Artzi's shop. A nice bichwa dagger with either a laminated blade or shear steel blade can't be sure though. The hilt is made of bronze and not brass as seen on most Indian daggers of this type. Let me know what you think. Lew Attached Images

19th February 2007, 07:23 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	I too, am intrigued as to how this dagger was held? Seems to be specifically designed to it's 'manner' of use or perhaps suited to an individual, possibly due to a physical problem/previous damage with the owners hand Last edited by katana; 19th February 2007 at 09:41 PM.

20th February 2007, 09:44 PM	#11
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Yes, indeed I did Katana, but I asked the question differently. Notice that the shark teeth sometimes are inwards and sometimes outwards – interesting. Could mean that the one making them could not remember on which side the – teeth should be, but it could also have another meaning, not known to us yet – or maybe the meaning is forgotten, but it could also be a wish to copy a known quality mark.

19th February 2007, 02:03 AM	#2
DhaDha Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 163	Congrats. That is a stunning piece. Curious about the handle. How do you hold it? Your example (with the blade parallel to the hilt) seems to be held with the blade flat to the user's body. Almost like a parrying/stabbing weapon. Other examples, not unlike my new bichwa I just posted, seem to be held with edge facing the body. Hope this makes sense... Shawn

19th February 2007, 09:34 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Nice Bichwa Lew. I think it must have been held at the upper part of the hilt, and the lower part has been the hand protection. The thing which makes me wonder, are the 'eye lashes 'on a dagger blade, so far I have only seen them on sword blades. Any comments?

19th February 2007, 09:51 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Yes Katana, but I don't think the dagger was meant for use in war, I think it was for self protection. Besides, you did not answer my question about the 'eye lashes'. Jens

20th February 2007, 04:08 AM	#9
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Hi All I have tried holding the dagger a few ways and you can grasp it either from the top of the hilt as Jens has suggested or by holding the entire hilt. The blade seems to be made of double shear steel rather than a more complex pattern welded steel with many layers but one can't be certain of this. I just find it strange that the hilt is bronze has anyone come across these types of daggers with bronze hilts most seem to be made of brass or steel? Btw I remember seeing a kukri somewhere with the eyelash markings on it so they are not reserved strictly for swords. Lew

20th February 2007, 12:34 PM	#10
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello, The eyelash mark is the gurda on Chechen/Georgiena/Caucasian shashkas, so what is it doing on Indian blades. The same mark consistently appears on tulwars as well...would this be a case of coincidence or imitation? If the latter, then in which direction? Emanuel

25th February 2007, 09:14 PM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	These trade markings, which are often termed 'sickle' marks in much of the literature on arms, are thought to derive from early markings found on the blades of Italian swords, specifically those from Genoa (see concurrent discussion on 'clunker saif'). As Jens has noted, it does not seem these have ever occurred on edged weapons other than swords. It seems to me interesting that while sword blades were often trade commodities, it does not appear that dagger or knife blades were. Although certainly daggers or knives probably diffused along the usual trade routes, they mostly appear to have done so fully mounted. Since these 'sickle' or eyelash marks were typically added to trade blades or native made blades heralding the quality of the blade itself, such 'trade' marks are not known on daggers or knives (of course excluding talismanic or other motif or markings). While the sickle marks are indeed found on many Caucasian blades (where they are often termed 'gurda' or 'quality' blades), the markings themselves imitate the same type markings seen on blades from Germany and Styria. These were in turn applied spuriously in imitation of the highly regarded trade blades from Italy. It seems that these sickle marks occur almost invariably on examples of the 'paluoar' typically from Afghanistan and the Northwest frontier, and of course occasionally on tulwar examples from Indian regions nearer these borders. As far as this marking being associated with Sikhs, in research I have done in the past, I have been told that there are not any specific symbols or markings applied to weapons that are exclusive to the Sikh Faith. Best regards, Jim