Kindjal for coments

fernando · 19th April 2008, 11:58 PM

A triple fullered 18" (45 cms. ) blade.
Handle looks horn ... at least by night

Wooden scabbard covered by "white brass" on the front and tin on the back.
Kindjal labeled by seller as 18th century and scabbard 19th century.
Anyone familiar with these blade marks ?
Is it easy to tell the origin of this piece ? and the possible veracity of its age ?
Thanks a lot in advance.
Fernando

ariel · 20th April 2008, 12:03 AM

The scabbard ornaments look Balkan to me. The blade... Daghestani trade blade.
Overall, hard to call it Caucasian

fernando · 20th April 2008, 12:07 AM

Thank you Ariel.
18th century for the blade, makes any sense ?

ariel · 20th April 2008, 05:48 AM

Unlikely. There are less than 20 known Kindjal blades in existence dated 18th century ( I have one) . None from the 17th. Check Miller's book "Kaukasiske Wappen".

fernando · 20th April 2008, 06:37 PM

Thank you once more. I will register the data on this piece, concerning blade and scabbard, as per your input. I will consider its age as being XIX century.
Funny thing i can't spot that book in the Net

.
Kind regards
Fernando

TVV · 20th April 2008, 08:16 PM

I think Oriental Arms may have a copy of the book.
As for the kindjal, I wish I could help more, but all I can do is agree with Ariel that the Scabbard and hilt look like late 19th century Balkan work.

fernando · 21st April 2008, 11:29 PM

Book found at Oriental Arms.
Thanks a lot.
Fernando

fernando · 21st May 2008, 09:57 PM

I was scrolling the PDF pages of this book about Caucasian Weapons by E. Astvacaturyan, that a member ( i don't remember whom) has provided us long time ago by email and, in page 145, there is a sketch with what i think to be several makers marks seen on 19th century kindjals. To my unexperienced eyes one of these marks seems to be the same as part of the symbols in the example i have posted in this thread. I am a zero in Russian, but this part of the book appears to be the Daghestan section ... precisely the area mentioned by Ariel as being the provenance of the discussed piece.
Could those members with more knowledge in this subject give a coment on this similarity ?
Ariel, could you help ?
Thanks
Fernando

ward · 22nd May 2008, 01:00 AM

Nice old blade and scabbard on this one. A lot different than the tourist items listed recently. My only question/concern would be the handle. Normally you would see the rivets on the reverse side of the handle possibly the grips are recently replaced or maybe I just can not see them in pic

fernando · 22nd May 2008, 02:00 AM

Thank you Ward,
Now that you mention, i have rechecked the handle and its assembly. The grip is made of one only piece ... of horn, i still think.
The tang, at the grip entrance, looks to be the plate type and not of spike form. The fixation points are not what you can call rivets, but nails with a round shell head, like those in the large luxury leather covered chairs, if you know what i mean. They don't go through to the other side, indeed. But they sure are very old, so much worn that the shells are risking to fall off the nails. Whether this grip was not the original, it sure is from the period or close to it.
What do you think about the mark in the book and that in the blade of this piece ? Could it be the same ?
Fernando

Gonzalo G · 29th May 2008, 03:17 AM

Fernando, I see a relation among this mark and yours. The figure on the books is referred to typical marking on kindjals from the first half of the 19th Century.
Regards

Gonzalo

fernando · 29th May 2008, 01:18 PM

Much obliged for your help, Gonzalo.
Eventually i had that legend translated by a Russian ( Siberian) acquaintance ... which coincides with your interpretation

.
I just thaught the kinzhal conoisseurs would favour me with some considerations on the mark analogy or similarity

.
Thanks all the same.
Fernando

Gonzalo G · 30th May 2008, 03:34 AM

On the contrary, Fernando, I feel muito obrigado with you, as you are sharing this interesting piece with a description, which is a source of a new learning....and this is all about, isn´t it? I think I will not show my poor 20th Century kindjal, as it is a piece of small value and it will not dreserve a word. Excuse me Fernando, do you have the width and thickness of the blade at it´s beginning, and the weight of the kindjal without sabbard? I can get the other measures by the use of proportions. Thank you.
Regards

Gonzalo

fernando · 30th May 2008, 06:52 PM

Hi Gonzalo, there you are:

Width: 39 m/m.
Thickness: over 4 m/m.
Weight: 330 grams.

I assume you use the metric system in Mexico

Saludos

Fernando

Gonzalo G · 31st May 2008, 12:13 AM

!Thank you, Fernando, very useful information! Yes, we also use the metric system in the whole Latin America...and part of Canada, I belive.

My best regards

Gonzalo

David · 31st May 2008, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

!Thank you, Fernando, very useful information! Yes, we also use the metric system in the whole Latin America...and part of Canada, I belive.

My best regards

Gonzalo

Yep, it's just us stubborn Americans that insist on inches.

Jeff D · 31st May 2008, 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

!Thank you, Fernando, very useful information! Yes, we also use the metric system in the whole Latin America...and part of Canada, I belive.

My best regards

Gonzalo

Actually, all of Canada

Jeff

19th April 2008, 11:58 PM	#1
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,637	Kindjal for coments A triple fullered 18" (45 cms. ) blade. Handle looks horn ... at least by night Wooden scabbard covered by "white brass" on the front and tin on the back. Kindjal labeled by seller as 18th century and scabbard 19th century. Anyone familiar with these blade marks ? Is it easy to tell the origin of this piece ? and the possible veracity of its age ? Thanks a lot in advance. Fernando Attached Images

21st May 2008, 09:57 PM	#8
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,637	I was scrolling the PDF pages of this book about Caucasian Weapons by E. Astvacaturyan, that a member ( i don't remember whom) has provided us long time ago by email and, in page 145, there is a sketch with what i think to be several makers marks seen on 19th century kindjals. To my unexperienced eyes one of these marks seems to be the same as part of the symbols in the example i have posted in this thread. I am a zero in Russian, but this part of the book appears to be the Daghestan section ... precisely the area mentioned by Ariel as being the provenance of the discussed piece. Could those members with more knowledge in this subject give a coment on this similarity ? Ariel, could you help ? Thanks Fernando Attached Images

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20th April 2008, 12:03 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The scabbard ornaments look Balkan to me. The blade... Daghestani trade blade. Overall, hard to call it Caucasian

20th April 2008, 12:07 AM	#3
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,637	Thank you Ariel. 18th century for the blade, makes any sense ?

20th April 2008, 05:48 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Unlikely. There are less than 20 known Kindjal blades in existence dated 18th century ( I have one) . None from the 17th. Check Miller's book "Kaukasiske Wappen".

20th April 2008, 06:37 PM	#5
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,637	Thank you once more. I will register the data on this piece, concerning blade and scabbard, as per your input. I will consider its age as being XIX century. Funny thing i can't spot that book in the Net . Kind regards Fernando

20th April 2008, 08:16 PM	#6
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,597	I think Oriental Arms may have a copy of the book. As for the kindjal, I wish I could help more, but all I can do is agree with Ariel that the Scabbard and hilt look like late 19th century Balkan work.

21st April 2008, 11:29 PM	#7
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,637	Book found at Oriental Arms. Thanks a lot. Fernando

22nd May 2008, 01:00 AM	#9
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Nice old blade and scabbard on this one. A lot different than the tourist items listed recently. My only question/concern would be the handle. Normally you would see the rivets on the reverse side of the handle possibly the grips are recently replaced or maybe I just can not see them in pic

22nd May 2008, 02:00 AM	#10
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,637	Thank you Ward, Now that you mention, i have rechecked the handle and its assembly. The grip is made of one only piece ... of horn, i still think. The tang, at the grip entrance, looks to be the plate type and not of spike form. The fixation points are not what you can call rivets, but nails with a round shell head, like those in the large luxury leather covered chairs, if you know what i mean. They don't go through to the other side, indeed. But they sure are very old, so much worn that the shells are risking to fall off the nails. Whether this grip was not the original, it sure is from the period or close to it. What do you think about the mark in the book and that in the blade of this piece ? Could it be the same ? Fernando

29th May 2008, 03:17 AM	#11
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Fernando, I see a relation among this mark and yours. The figure on the books is referred to typical marking on kindjals from the first half of the 19th Century. Regards Gonzalo

29th May 2008, 01:18 PM	#12
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,637	Much obliged for your help, Gonzalo. Eventually i had that legend translated by a Russian ( Siberian) acquaintance ... which coincides with your interpretation . I just thaught the kinzhal conoisseurs would favour me with some considerations on the mark analogy or similarity . Thanks all the same. Fernando

30th May 2008, 03:34 AM	#13
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	On the contrary, Fernando, I feel muito obrigado with you, as you are sharing this interesting piece with a description, which is a source of a new learning....and this is all about, isn´t it? I think I will not show my poor 20th Century kindjal, as it is a piece of small value and it will not dreserve a word. Excuse me Fernando, do you have the width and thickness of the blade at it´s beginning, and the weight of the kindjal without sabbard? I can get the other measures by the use of proportions. Thank you. Regards Gonzalo

30th May 2008, 06:52 PM	#14
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,637	Hi Gonzalo, there you are: Width: 39 m/m. Thickness: over 4 m/m. Weight: 330 grams. I assume you use the metric system in Mexico Saludos Fernando

31st May 2008, 12:13 AM	#15
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	!Thank you, Fernando, very useful information! Yes, we also use the metric system in the whole Latin America...and part of Canada, I belive. My best regards Gonzalo