Chinese (or other country) sai/parrying weapon

Neil · 10th October 2014, 03:38 PM

"Neil, do you have any pictures of the Qing era Chinese prison guards, that would be interesting. I myself would call something rare when there are almost no images available online."

"Here is something I think we can agree is probably an indicator of Chinese manufacture, this particular four sided cross section. I have never seen a sai from either Indonesia or Okinawa that had this cross section."

Sorry for the slow response. I am putting my seasonal business to bed for the year and the hours are long.

I am also about to leave town for the weekend but I will share that image when I return. When I found it I was very excited. It is an important piece to the puzzle.

I thought I would also mention that I have owned a forked mace that I know was collected in China with a fully rounded percussion bar like a soda straw. With that said using the shape of the cross section of that area as an indicator of origin may not be the most reliable approach.

It might also be worth mentioning that the grip wrapping style on the mace pictured right above looks quite Chinese to me.

I am loving the actual pair example that Josh posted as well. To me that is rare and worth exploring further.

Lastly, I just want to say this is a great topic and discussion. I really appreciate hearing others thoughts and seeing pieces from their collections.

estcrh · 10th October 2014, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil

"Neil, do you have any pictures of the Qing era Chinese prison guards, that would be interesting. I myself would call something rare when there are almost no images available online."

"Here is something I think we can agree is probably an indicator of Chinese manufacture, this particular four sided cross section. I have never seen a sai from either Indonesia or Okinawa that had this cross section."

Sorry for the slow response. I am putting my seasonal business to bed for the year and the hours are long.

I am also about to leave town for the weekend but I will share that image when I return. When I found it I was very excited. It is an important piece to the puzzle.

I thought I would also mention that I have owned a forked mace that I know was collected in China with a fully rounded percussion bar like a soda straw. With that said using the shape of the cross section of that area as an indicator of origin may not be the most reliable approach.

It might also be worth mentioning that the grip wrapping style on the mace pictured right above looks quite Chinese to me.

I am loving the actual pair example that Josh posted as well. To me that is rare and worth exploring further.

Lastly, I just want to say this is a great topic and discussion. I really appreciate hearing others thoughts and seeing pieces from their collections.

Neil, without enough representitive examples its hard to accutately attribute origin to these type of weapons. To help out I have put together a Pinterest gallery of Chinese sai, mace, truncheons etc. There may be some replicas amoung the images but I have tried by best to weed them out. I think this is the largest collection of Chinese examples in the world.

From these images its easy to see that a four sided cross section whether rectangular, square, diamond shaped etc was very popular. As far as handles go wood, cord seem to be used.

http://www.pinterest.com/worldantiqu...ron-whips-etc/

Shakethetrees · 11th October 2014, 03:55 AM

As I recall, there are images to be found in the W.O. Oldman catalog.

They are not sai, but basically iron or bronze bars or tapering straight form with sword like hilts.

I will have to locate my copy and see if I can get a clear enough scan to use here. While the pictures are old and a bit faded, I believe the add a few interesting types that are scarcely seen these days.

In reading translated accounts of riots and crowd control during the 19th century's many upheavals I recall that they simply called these weapons "iron bars". This is probably due to translation issues as the Chinese term for them is never mentioned.

I will have a look around tonight.

spiral · 11th October 2014, 06:56 PM

Id guess these may be the weapons the Brits banned in Hong Kong & Shanghai as fighting irons?

It would be fascinating to see old photos of them in situ!

Given the mostly primitive black smithing structure of them Id guess we would have to assume there many fakes out there. Especially from China?

Ive heard hearsay of some being made & sold from Cornwall 20 to 30 years ago, by a fellow who collected & traded authentic Japanese swords....

spiral

Timo Nieminen · 12th October 2014, 02:12 AM

The various potential "fighting irons" are:

1. Iron ruler (鐵尺 (traditional), 铁尺 (simplified) , Pinyin tiě chǐ). Short iron bar, with or without distinct grip, with or without guard.

2. Jian (usually translated as "mace", 鐧 (traditional), 锏 (simplified), Pinyin jiǎn). Not the same character as jian "sword", which is 劍 (traditional), 剑 (simplified), Pinyin jiàn. Sword length (short sword) rather than dagger length.

3. Bian ("whip", 鞭, Pinyin biān). Apparently distinguished from jian by having a knobbed or segmented shape. Also "hard whip", to distinguish it from jointed metal whips (also bian) and flexible soft whips.

Jian and bian are often called "swordbreakers" in English. They appear in the Ming classic, The Water Margin, as weapons used by some of the heroes. Traditionally used in pairs.

At least some jian/bian are training devices, rather than weapons per se. If they're very heavy, or cast iron: probably trainers.

Some antique and modern examples shown in http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16220

Some more examples, some with scabbards:
Pair of tie chi: http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2499
Jian:
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2004
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2280
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2463
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1704
Long jian: http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3624
Bian: http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=4309

There were also long two-handed jian, like the long one above, but with longer grips.

estcrh · 12th October 2014, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

As I recall, there are images to be found in the W.O. Oldman catalog.

They are not sai, but basically iron or bronze bars or tapering straight form with sword like hilts.

I will have to locate my copy and see if I can get a clear enough scan to use here. While the pictures are old and a bit faded, I believe the add a few interesting types that are scarcely seen these days.

In reading translated accounts of riots and crowd control during the 19th century's many upheavals I recall that they simply called these weapons "iron bars". This is probably due to translation issues as the Chinese term for them is never mentioned.

I will have a look around tonight.

If you can find any additional images of any type that would be helpful.

10th October 2014, 03:38 PM	#1
Neil Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 109	"Neil, do you have any pictures of the Qing era Chinese prison guards, that would be interesting. I myself would call something rare when there are almost no images available online." "Here is something I think we can agree is probably an indicator of Chinese manufacture, this particular four sided cross section. I have never seen a sai from either Indonesia or Okinawa that had this cross section." Sorry for the slow response. I am putting my seasonal business to bed for the year and the hours are long. I am also about to leave town for the weekend but I will share that image when I return. When I found it I was very excited. It is an important piece to the puzzle. I thought I would also mention that I have owned a forked mace that I know was collected in China with a fully rounded percussion bar like a soda straw. With that said using the shape of the cross section of that area as an indicator of origin may not be the most reliable approach. It might also be worth mentioning that the grip wrapping style on the mace pictured right above looks quite Chinese to me. I am loving the actual pair example that Josh posted as well. To me that is rare and worth exploring further. Lastly, I just want to say this is a great topic and discussion. I really appreciate hearing others thoughts and seeing pieces from their collections.

11th October 2014, 03:55 AM	#3
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	As I recall, there are images to be found in the W.O. Oldman catalog. They are not sai, but basically iron or bronze bars or tapering straight form with sword like hilts. I will have to locate my copy and see if I can get a clear enough scan to use here. While the pictures are old and a bit faded, I believe the add a few interesting types that are scarcely seen these days. In reading translated accounts of riots and crowd control during the 19th century's many upheavals I recall that they simply called these weapons "iron bars". This is probably due to translation issues as the Chinese term for them is never mentioned. I will have a look around tonight.

11th October 2014, 06:56 PM	#4
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Id guess these may be the weapons the Brits banned in Hong Kong & Shanghai as fighting irons? It would be fascinating to see old photos of them in situ! Given the mostly primitive black smithing structure of them Id guess we would have to assume there many fakes out there. Especially from China? Ive heard hearsay of some being made & sold from Cornwall 20 to 30 years ago, by a fellow who collected & traded authentic Japanese swords.... spiral

12th October 2014, 02:12 AM	#5
Timo Nieminen Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 422	The various potential "fighting irons" are: 1. Iron ruler (鐵尺 (traditional), 铁尺 (simplified) , Pinyin tiě chǐ). Short iron bar, with or without distinct grip, with or without guard. 2. Jian (usually translated as "mace", 鐧 (traditional), 锏 (simplified), Pinyin jiǎn). Not the same character as jian "sword", which is 劍 (traditional), 剑 (simplified), Pinyin jiàn. Sword length (short sword) rather than dagger length. 3. Bian ("whip", 鞭, Pinyin biān). Apparently distinguished from jian by having a knobbed or segmented shape. Also "hard whip", to distinguish it from jointed metal whips (also bian) and flexible soft whips. Jian and bian are often called "swordbreakers" in English. They appear in the Ming classic, The Water Margin, as weapons used by some of the heroes. Traditionally used in pairs. At least some jian/bian are training devices, rather than weapons per se. If they're very heavy, or cast iron: probably trainers. Some antique and modern examples shown in http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16220 Some more examples, some with scabbards: Pair of tie chi: http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2499 Jian: http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2004 http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2280 http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2463 http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1704 Long jian: http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3624 Bian: http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=4309 There were also long two-handed jian, like the long one above, but with longer grips.