For those who like Oriental stuff

fernando · 22nd November 2007, 06:13 PM

These are permanently exhibited at the Military Museum in Oporto, labelled as halberds, "possibly" Oriental, with actual origin and date unknown.
They belonged to the collection of General Antonio Joaquim Garcia, whose career was totally spent in Timor and Macau, as a Comander and as a Governor.
In my ignorant view, these pieces were acquired or presented in one of these places, more likely in Macau, but i wonder why the guys at the museum are not able to reach this or a different assumption, being these so much characterized specimens.
Any ideas ?
Fernando

spiral · 22nd November 2007, 07:18 PM

I dont know Fernando , I know zilch of Chinese weapons but i would guess they were made specialy for General Antonio Joaquim Garcias collection? {with or withou his knowledge...}

They exhibit a hodge potch of parts welded together I think?

A Tibetan style Dorje & spear?

& the worst examples welding I have ever seen on any weapon bar none.

I am sure the curaters are noticing such things also.....

Spiral

ariel · 22nd November 2007, 07:40 PM

The impaled cow looks hilarious

I agree with Spiral: even without deep knowledge of Chinese weaponry, one can see that the items are so schizophrenically inhomogeneous and nevertheless so consistent in their technique, that they must have come from the same hooligan shop.

fernando · 22nd November 2007, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

I dont know Fernando , I know zilch of Chinese weapons but i would guess they were made specialy for General Antonio Joaquim Garcias collection? {with or withou his knowledge...}

They exhibit a hodge potch of parts welded together I think?

A Tibetan style Dorje & spear?

& the worst examples welding I have ever seen on any weapon bar none.

I am sure the curaters are noticing such things also.....

Spiral

It doesn't take a curator to produce such kind of considerations, as hardly that is the issue here. I am looking for some positive coments, more within the ethnographic side, to put it that way. Not properly the accuracy of the components alignment as a primary topic, but the allegory of the figures involved, whether naive or not, their historical meaning, if there is one, as well as other details one can learn with, from knowledge people. This General has lived in the XIX century, so these pieces were not made the other day, whatever they represent.
However thank you for your coments, which i am sure were well intentioned
All the best
Fernando

Philip · 22nd November 2007, 08:05 PM

These belong to a set of pole arms commonly seen in Chinese and Vietnamese temples. Usually, there is a rack of eight on each side of the altar in the main sanctuary. They are supposed to be for the use of the guardian spirits of the shrine (in Buddhist temples, guardian statues are often seen in pairs at the entryway, usually standing in martial arts poses with clenched fists, or holding maces).

The heads of the pole arms are patterned after various types of spears, glaives, battle-axes, and even maces. In Vietnam, one often sees long two-handed sabers (guom truong) in these panoplies.

The "weapons" are of various materials, most often of brass, sometimes of gilt and lacquered wood. They vary in quality according to the wealth of the temple's congregation. I've seen matched sets in fine gilt brass with the temple's name engraved on each. (some have ended up minus their poles, mounted on display pedestals at oriental art fairs, with some pretty fancy price-tags attached). Others can be quite cheaply made, and nothing to crow about. Needless to say, they are strictly "for show" and had no military purpose whatsoever.

Similar polearms, but with generally larger heads, were also part of the funeral procession regalia.

I like the "impaled cow", too. Bovines don't figure as much in Chinese popular religion as in India, but the choice of animal may be dictated by the particular temple that it was displayed in. For instance, there is a "Bach Ma Mieu" (White Horse Temple) in Hanoi, enshrining a deified equine, and there are horsey themes in the decoration of not only the building but several of its interior furnishings.

fernando · 22nd November 2007, 08:30 PM

Hi Ariel

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

The impaled cow looks hilarious

I agree with Spiral: even without deep knowledge of Chinese weaponry, one can see that the items are so schizophrenically inhomogeneous and nevertheless so consistent in their technique, that they must have come from the same hooligan shop.

I bet you will never figure out why your (and Ariel's) posting/s made me think of John Steinbeck ... I even doubt why, myself

But i see that the cavalry arrived, in the person of Philip, and here we have some real juice

.
Thank you Philip, for the teachings ... and the others, for their humoristic intervention.
Fernando

spiral · 22nd November 2007, 09:59 PM

"These are permanently exhibited at the Military Museum in Oporto, labelled as halberds, "possibly" Oriental, with actual origin and date unknown."

Was part of your questian.

Perhaps you should ask the curator why they wont positivly identify them in thier name...

But sorry if my observational answear offended you, the pieces genuinly made me laugh.

cheers,
Spiral

fernando · 23rd November 2007, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

"These are permanently exhibited at the Military Museum in Oporto, labelled as halberds, "possibly" Oriental, with actual origin and date unknown."

Was part of your questian.

Perhaps you should ask the curator why they wont positivly identify them in thier name...

But sorry if my observational answear offended you, the pieces genuinly made me laugh.

cheers,
Spiral

Hi Jonathan,
Don't take it wrong, but i regret failling to find the sense of your remark

. If they knew how to properly name them, they would certainly know their origin, and all about them. Now that i know what they are, from Philip, i will tell them myself. Besides i don't see much unfamiliarity between halberds and polearms

.
No, you didn't offend me; i am starting to get used to your observational answers

; i know they are garnished with good intent. Besides, i already told you about the bullits and the indifference cuirass

All the best
Fernando

Emanuel · 23rd November 2007, 12:28 AM

Hello Fernando,

Here are two more such temple polearms, from Vietnam.

These ones in the Antonio Joaquim Garcia do look bad, sorry

All the best,
Emanuel

fernando · 23rd November 2007, 12:51 AM

Thanks for the pictures of excelent examples, Emanuel.
You don't have to be sorry, by any means

.
The question was more to know what they were, and not how nice they were. As for quality, see Philip's posting. The General died over a hundred years ago, maybe he knew they have a relative value

. Probably the museum got them for free

. And i don't intend to buy them, anyway

Thanks again for bringing those pictures.
Fernando

VANDOO · 23rd November 2007, 04:07 AM

I AGREE WITH PHILIP, THESE SETS HAVE OFTEN BEEN PRESENTED TO FORIGN DIGNITARYS AS THEY ARE VERY ATTRACTIVE AND DISPLAY WELL IN THEIR RACKS. THERE WAS A SET IN A LOCAL MUSEUM HERE YEARS AGO THAT HAD BEEN PRESENTED TO T.L. OSBOURN A TRAVELING INTERNATIONAL EVANGILIST. I HAVE ALSO SEEN TWO EXAMPLES THAT WERE PART OF A TRIBAL INDIAN LODGE HERE IN OKLAHOMA SO THEY DO GET AROUND.

YOU CAN STILL FIND SMALL MINATURE SETS FOR SALE IN THE ORIENT TODAY.

I THINK THEY WERE ONLY USED AS CEREMONIAL ITEMS IN THE TEMPLES AS WELL AS CARRIED IN SOME CEREMONYS AND PROCESSIONS. THEY ARE VERY COOL ITEMS, THEY WERE NOT WEAPONS BUT THEY DID NONE THE LESS SERVE AN ETHINOGRAPHIC ROLE .

Jim McDougall · 23rd November 2007, 04:26 AM

Thank you for posting these Fernando, very interesting polearms, and I am with you in that I would be interested in knowing more on possible historic connections or sources. It seems that in many weapons that may be of somewhat questionable value in their quality, may of course still carry certain merit in the use for which they are intended, in this case ceremonial, and especially in temple use.
Many weapons intended for such use in temples and religious processions are representative often of actual weapons in use, and further often carry key symbolism that help us learn more on the history and culture of the people using them.
We are fortunate to have Philip's, as always, eloquently described and informative detail providing just that type of information. Its always great to learn more on the weapons we discuss, and while friendly banter and critique is always fun, its good to add some constructive observation and notes into the mix, to accomplish doing that !

Thanks for keepin' it real guys!

All best regards,
Jim

P.S. Just saw your post Vandoo, well said!!!!

VANDOO · 23rd November 2007, 06:31 PM

I AM SURE THE VARIOUS FORMS OF THESE CEREMONIAL WEAPONS HAD SOME SPECIFIC NAMES AND MAY HAVE REPRESENTED SOME CHINESE GOD OR GAURDIAN IN SOME ANCIENT STORY. THEY PROBABLY ALSO HAD THEIR OWN SPECIAL POWER OR MEANING, I HAVE SEEN VARIATION IN THE FORMS OF THE POLEARM HEADS FROM THE SETS I HAVE SEEN BUT THERE USUALLY SEEMS TO BE THE BASIC FORMS IN EACH SET, THE MACE FORM, THE TRIDENT FORM ECT. PERHAPS THERE IS SOME ASSOCIATION WITH THE 10 IMORTALS OR SOME OTHER LEGENDARY GROUP? IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO TRACK DOWN SOME OF THE LEGENDS AND MEANINGS ASOCIATED WITH THE VARIOUS ONES AS THEIR FORMS DO HAVE OLD MEANINGS UNLIKE MODERN FANTASY WEAPONS.

I WOULD NAME THE LARGE SPIKEY MACE " CELESTIAL DRAGON MACE WHO SHATTERS THE COSMOS"

fernando · 23rd November 2007, 07:48 PM

Hi Vandoo,
I apreciate the enthusiasm you are putting on this theme

Thank you so much.
Fernando

fernando · 12th December 2007, 04:21 PM

I have spotted a more real version of these things, exhibited at the Palace of the Dukes of Bragança, belonging to a collection gathered by the Viscount of Pindela.
The picture is horrible ... they don't allow us to take pictures and there is a rope to keep the visitors at distance.
According to the book, these are considered halberds ( there are two of them ), made in iron, steel and bronze. The large blade is 83 cms. long. The bronze socket represents the front of a strange marine species, frequently reproduced in Chinese works such as sculpture, porcelains, laquers, embroideries, fabrics, bronzes, coppers, even in stamping works , showing in this specimen a magnificent work of modeling and chisel.
While probably the General was not an ethnographic gatherer and the replicas were possibly offered to him in a ritual or friendly gesture, relative to his functions, the Viscount was a fine collector and must have paid some reasonable amount to aquire the real period stuff.
These halberds are dated XVI century.
Fernando

22nd November 2007, 06:13 PM	#1
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	For those who like Oriental stuff These are permanently exhibited at the Military Museum in Oporto, labelled as halberds, "possibly" Oriental, with actual origin and date unknown. They belonged to the collection of General Antonio Joaquim Garcia, whose career was totally spent in Timor and Macau, as a Comander and as a Governor. In my ignorant view, these pieces were acquired or presented in one of these places, more likely in Macau, but i wonder why the guys at the museum are not able to reach this or a different assumption, being these so much characterized specimens. Any ideas ? Fernando Attached Images

22nd November 2007, 08:05 PM	#5
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	temple regalia These belong to a set of pole arms commonly seen in Chinese and Vietnamese temples. Usually, there is a rack of eight on each side of the altar in the main sanctuary. They are supposed to be for the use of the guardian spirits of the shrine (in Buddhist temples, guardian statues are often seen in pairs at the entryway, usually standing in martial arts poses with clenched fists, or holding maces). The heads of the pole arms are patterned after various types of spears, glaives, battle-axes, and even maces. In Vietnam, one often sees long two-handed sabers (guom truong) in these panoplies. The "weapons" are of various materials, most often of brass, sometimes of gilt and lacquered wood. They vary in quality according to the wealth of the temple's congregation. I've seen matched sets in fine gilt brass with the temple's name engraved on each. (some have ended up minus their poles, mounted on display pedestals at oriental art fairs, with some pretty fancy price-tags attached). Others can be quite cheaply made, and nothing to crow about. Needless to say, they are strictly "for show" and had no military purpose whatsoever. Similar polearms, but with generally larger heads, were also part of the funeral procession regalia. I like the "impaled cow", too. Bovines don't figure as much in Chinese popular religion as in India, but the choice of animal may be dictated by the particular temple that it was displayed in. For instance, there is a "Bach Ma Mieu" (White Horse Temple) in Hanoi, enshrining a deified equine, and there are horsey themes in the decoration of not only the building but several of its interior furnishings.

23rd November 2007, 06:31 PM	#13
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I AM SURE THE VARIOUS FORMS OF THESE CEREMONIAL WEAPONS HAD SOME SPECIFIC NAMES AND MAY HAVE REPRESENTED SOME CHINESE GOD OR GAURDIAN IN SOME ANCIENT STORY. THEY PROBABLY ALSO HAD THEIR OWN SPECIAL POWER OR MEANING, I HAVE SEEN VARIATION IN THE FORMS OF THE POLEARM HEADS FROM THE SETS I HAVE SEEN BUT THERE USUALLY SEEMS TO BE THE BASIC FORMS IN EACH SET, THE MACE FORM, THE TRIDENT FORM ECT. PERHAPS THERE IS SOME ASSOCIATION WITH THE 10 IMORTALS OR SOME OTHER LEGENDARY GROUP? IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO TRACK DOWN SOME OF THE LEGENDS AND MEANINGS ASOCIATED WITH THE VARIOUS ONES AS THEIR FORMS DO HAVE OLD MEANINGS UNLIKE MODERN FANTASY WEAPONS. I WOULD NAME THE LARGE SPIKEY MACE " CELESTIAL DRAGON MACE WHO SHATTERS THE COSMOS" Last edited by VANDOO; 23rd November 2007 at 06:47 PM.

12th December 2007, 04:21 PM	#15
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	IS THERE A CLOSE RELATION BETWEEN BOTH VERSIONS ? I have spotted a more real version of these things, exhibited at the Palace of the Dukes of Bragança, belonging to a collection gathered by the Viscount of Pindela. The picture is horrible ... they don't allow us to take pictures and there is a rope to keep the visitors at distance. According to the book, these are considered halberds ( there are two of them ), made in iron, steel and bronze. The large blade is 83 cms. long. The bronze socket represents the front of a strange marine species, frequently reproduced in Chinese works such as sculpture, porcelains, laquers, embroideries, fabrics, bronzes, coppers, even in stamping works , showing in this specimen a magnificent work of modeling and chisel. While probably the General was not an ethnographic gatherer and the replicas were possibly offered to him in a ritual or friendly gesture, relative to his functions, the Viscount was a fine collector and must have paid some reasonable amount to aquire the real period stuff. These halberds are dated XVI century. Fernando Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 12th December 2007 at 11:09 PM.

22nd November 2007, 07:18 PM	#2
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	I dont know Fernando , I know zilch of Chinese weapons but i would guess they were made specialy for General Antonio Joaquim Garcias collection? {with or withou his knowledge...} They exhibit a hodge potch of parts welded together I think? A Tibetan style Dorje & spear? & the worst examples welding I have ever seen on any weapon bar none. I am sure the curaters are noticing such things also..... Spiral

22nd November 2007, 07:40 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The impaled cow looks hilarious I agree with Spiral: even without deep knowledge of Chinese weaponry, one can see that the items are so schizophrenically inhomogeneous and nevertheless so consistent in their technique, that they must have come from the same hooligan shop.

22nd November 2007, 09:59 PM	#7
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	"These are permanently exhibited at the Military Museum in Oporto, labelled as halberds, "possibly" Oriental, with actual origin and date unknown." Was part of your questian. Perhaps you should ask the curator why they wont positivly identify them in thier name... But sorry if my observational answear offended you, the pieces genuinly made me laugh. cheers, Spiral

23rd November 2007, 12:28 AM	#9
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello Fernando, Here are two more such temple polearms, from Vietnam. These ones in the Antonio Joaquim Garcia do look bad, sorry All the best, Emanuel

23rd November 2007, 12:51 AM	#10
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Thanks for the pictures of excelent examples, Emanuel. You don't have to be sorry, by any means . The question was more to know what they were, and not how nice they were. As for quality, see Philip's posting. The General died over a hundred years ago, maybe he knew they have a relative value . Probably the museum got them for free . And i don't intend to buy them, anyway Thanks again for bringing those pictures. Fernando

23rd November 2007, 04:07 AM	#11
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I AGREE WITH PHILIP, THESE SETS HAVE OFTEN BEEN PRESENTED TO FORIGN DIGNITARYS AS THEY ARE VERY ATTRACTIVE AND DISPLAY WELL IN THEIR RACKS. THERE WAS A SET IN A LOCAL MUSEUM HERE YEARS AGO THAT HAD BEEN PRESENTED TO T.L. OSBOURN A TRAVELING INTERNATIONAL EVANGILIST. I HAVE ALSO SEEN TWO EXAMPLES THAT WERE PART OF A TRIBAL INDIAN LODGE HERE IN OKLAHOMA SO THEY DO GET AROUND. YOU CAN STILL FIND SMALL MINATURE SETS FOR SALE IN THE ORIENT TODAY. I THINK THEY WERE ONLY USED AS CEREMONIAL ITEMS IN THE TEMPLES AS WELL AS CARRIED IN SOME CEREMONYS AND PROCESSIONS. THEY ARE VERY COOL ITEMS, THEY WERE NOT WEAPONS BUT THEY DID NONE THE LESS SERVE AN ETHINOGRAPHIC ROLE .

23rd November 2007, 04:26 AM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,753	Thank you for posting these Fernando, very interesting polearms, and I am with you in that I would be interested in knowing more on possible historic connections or sources. It seems that in many weapons that may be of somewhat questionable value in their quality, may of course still carry certain merit in the use for which they are intended, in this case ceremonial, and especially in temple use. Many weapons intended for such use in temples and religious processions are representative often of actual weapons in use, and further often carry key symbolism that help us learn more on the history and culture of the people using them. We are fortunate to have Philip's, as always, eloquently described and informative detail providing just that type of information. Its always great to learn more on the weapons we discuss, and while friendly banter and critique is always fun, its good to add some constructive observation and notes into the mix, to accomplish doing that ! Thanks for keepin' it real guys! All best regards, Jim P.S. Just saw your post Vandoo, well said!!!!

23rd November 2007, 07:48 PM	#14
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Hi Vandoo, I apreciate the enthusiasm you are putting on this theme Thank you so much. Fernando