Ethnographic Arms & Armour - Help on what I just bought....

23rd September 2020, 08:02 AM	#1
blindside Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Kennewick, WA Posts: 30	Help on what I just bought.... I just received this off an ebay auction which I somewhat accidentally won (there is a lesson here about not attempting to throw in a last second low bid while operating a tractor) and I really don't have a clue what it is. My main interest is Filipino blades and while this sort of reminds me of that region it has a lot of odd elements. The auction listed it as "Antique Persian Russian Caucasian Snake Guard Sword Blade Weapon," as completely not helpful as that is. At this point if anyone has any suggestions on what it is I would appreciate it. Thanks! Overall length: 28.5 inches / 72.4cm handle: 5in / 10.2cm blade 23.5in / 59.7cm weight 21oz / 595g Attached Images Last edited by blindside : 23rd September 2020 at 08:53 AM.

23rd September 2020, 09:47 AM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 3,035	Aha! You ended up with it! I was watching but did not bid on it. Very unusual piece. The blade reminds me somewhat, in shape at least, of a Chassepot bayonet or one of its variants. From what I can see in these pics, it is not a Chassepot but looks like one. I can't make up my mind whether the hilt is wooden or horn. The pommel looks like a horse hoof, but there is a ring protruding from the end also. And the D-guard ... I hope somebody here has seen similar before.

23rd September 2020, 10:48 AM	#3
Conduit Member Join Date: Jun 2019 Posts: 6	Hilt is wood. Mostly likely a homemade hunting dagger judging by the shape of hilt and quillon and lack of the maker mark.

23rd September 2020, 11:28 AM	#4
Duccio Member Join Date: May 2020 Location: Florence, Italy Posts: 28	Hello, the blade actually has the shape of a bayonet "yataghan type", as was that of the chassepot, but the section of the blade was definitely different. Moreover, there were many bayonet models with that shape, in the mid-nineteenth century, and even the dimensions seem more those of a bayonet than that of a cavalry saber. To the eye the hilt really (made of horn?) has the shape of a horse's leg, complete with horseshoe, but it doesn't look like a standard military workmanship ... could it be a custom job for the recovery of a bayonet blade? Very curious object, indeed! And anyway, since it was a random offer, it could have been much worse ...

23rd September 2020, 12:27 PM	#5
Conduit Member Join Date: Jun 2019 Posts: 6	This blade has not been recovered from an yatagan bladed bayonet. All military issued yatagan bayonets have fullered blades.

23rd September 2020, 01:27 PM	#6
blindside Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Kennewick, WA Posts: 30	Thank you all, the hilt is horn.

23rd September 2020, 03:13 PM	#7
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 83	I hoped this would show up on the site. It looked like a converted bayonet but as mentioned before the cross section was wrong. Then there the snake motif to make matters more confusing. Then I thought possibly a pedang lurus for a second and finally a hunting sword. It confused me to the point I tried to grab it just to take a look at the metal for a bit of an answer but the price jumped at the last second. I was blindsided. Good job! What can you see as far as the structure of the steel and construction methods? Is the tang peened or threaded? Last edited by Interested Party : 23rd September 2020 at 03:16 PM. Reason: Afterthought

24th September 2020, 12:42 AM

blindside

Member

Join Date: Apr 2006

Location: Kennewick, WA

Posts: 30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Interested Party

I hoped this would show up on the site. It looked like a converted bayonet but as mentioned before the cross section was wrong. Then there the snake motif to make matters more confusing. Then I thought possibly a pedang lurus for a second and finally a hunting sword. It confused me to the point I tried to grab it just to take a look at the metal for a bit of an answer but the price jumped at the last second. I was blindsided. Good job!

What can you see as far as the structure of the steel and construction methods?

Is the tang peened or threaded?

The tang is threaded, that metal loop is the threaded to hold the guard in place. I have not tried to fully disassemble the hilt.

The guard and decorative elements are non-magnetic but feel heavier than tin, maybe a white brass?

The metal of the blade doesn't appear to be notable.

24th September 2020, 12:58 AM	#9
Rick Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 5,856	Would the slot at the base of the knucklebow be intended for the attachment of a sword knot? Is that niello on the ring at the hoof? Would the three holes on the horseshoe be intended for decorative nails perhaps?

24th September 2020, 01:17 AM

#10

blindside

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Join Date: Apr 2006

Location: Kennewick, WA

Posts: 30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Would the slot at the base of the knucklebow be intended for the attachment of a sword knot? Is that niello on the ring at the hoof? Would the three holes on the horseshoe be intended for decorative nails perhaps?

The four holes in the horseshoe have two remnants of nails going into the pommel and there is a hole where the third should go but that isn't visible under the D-guard. The fourth (top) is the remnants of a similar hole is visible where the horn has broken off.

I don't know if that is niello on the ring, it does appear slightly different than the pommel but I can't tell if that is just due to wear.

24th September 2020, 02:09 AM	#11
Rick Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 5,856	Looking closer, I don't think the ring is niello it's engraved. The horse hoof pommel is reminiscent of Filipino motifs. The blade has a T spine from what I can see. I don't recall T spine Filipino blades; but I'm old and memory fails me sometimes. The engraving doesn't look like typical Filipino work.. The threaded loop is also incongruous. Puzzling but very attractive nonetheless.

24th September 2020, 05:10 AM

#12

blindside

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Join Date: Apr 2006

Location: Kennewick, WA

Posts: 30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Looking closer, I don't think the ring is niello it's engraved. The horse hoof pommel is reminiscent of Filipino motifs. The blade has a T spine from what I can see. I don't recall T spine Filipino blades; but I'm old and memory fails me sometimes.

It does not have a T spine, there is a bevel along the top that forms an unsharpened false edge.

24th September 2020, 06:53 AM	#13
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: CSA Consulate, Rm. 101, Glos. UK: p.s. - Real Dogs Have Feathering. Posts: 3,352	The slots in the front of the guard plate look more like decorative piercings, but could be used for a sword knot or even a finger loop. The looped pommel nut looks like it was for a sword knot (lanyard) lanyard or a decorative tassel. Cool sword anyway. How long is the blade? most yat bayonets are pretty much all the 'standard' length. (My guess is also Philippines.) My horn handled 'hunter' has an French 1866 yat bayonet blade of 57 cm. (22.4 in.) & fits a spare frenchy scabbard perfectly. The blade is also completely different, (fullered, etc.) than the subject blade of the OP's weapon. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew : 24th September 2020 at 07:05 AM.

24th September 2020, 07:10 AM	#14
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: CSA Consulate, Rm. 101, Glos. UK: p.s. - Real Dogs Have Feathering. Posts: 3,352	p.s. - they also come in unfullered double edged flat diamond x-section. Attached Images

24th September 2020, 02:42 PM

#15

Interested Party

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Join Date: Dec 2019

Location: Eastern Sierra

Posts: 83

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

The engraving doesn't look like typical Filipino work..

The threaded loop is also incongruous.
Puzzling but very attractive nonetheless.

This was a sellers picture. Hopefully it is ok to post. Different light, different angle. Note the traces of blue on the D guard. It is on both sides. Verdigris, paint, or enamel? Sorry for bugging you blindside but this perplexed me and one rarely gets a chance for answers about images on the internet.

Attached Images

24th September 2020, 03:19 PM	#16
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,418	Could the guard and grip furniture actually be silver? Looks like a one off 19th century hunting hanger. As said not military construction, but I would say it is of western construction and not done in a shed if you know what I mean. The style of it reminds me of the sort of 19th century trinkets like ink wells made out of horse hoofs and that sort of thing very popular with the posh hunting set around the 19th and very early 20th century. As mentioned the blade form is also very common to the time.

24th September 2020, 03:53 PM

#17

David

Keris forum moderator

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: Nova Scotia

Posts: 6,109

Quote:

Originally Posted by Interested Party

You are correct to note "different light", but perhaps even more importantly, different white balance. Or perhaps more importantly, incorrect whit balance as i am fairly certain the background of this photo is supposed to be white. So give the very incorrect white balance i am not sure what you are looking at in this photo is really blue.

25th September 2020, 05:32 AM	#18
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 83	Interesting. The seller lightened the photos?

25th September 2020, 06:39 AM

#19

blindside

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Join Date: Apr 2006

Location: Kennewick, WA

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Could the guard and grip furniture actually be silver? Looks like a one off 19th century hunting hanger. As said not military construction, but I would say it is of western construction and not done in a shed if you know what I mean. The style of it reminds me of the sort of 19th century trinkets like ink wells made out of horse hoofs and that sort of thing very popular with the posh hunting set around the 19th and very early 20th century. As mentioned the blade form is also very common to the time.

So after taking a close look at it I decided to hit it with a gentle silver polish and I am now about 90% convinced it is silver. Images are heavily contrasted to make the designs stand out.

Attached Images

25th September 2020, 01:13 PM	#20
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,418	A goodly amount of silver too, compered to most sea stuff

25th September 2020, 01:16 PM	#21
carlos Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 697	I saw this auction but finally I didn t bid. Seems a good piece, but I couldn,t identify a filipino piece. Thanks for sharing Carlos

3rd October 2020, 12:51 PM	#22
Duccio Member Join Date: May 2020 Location: Florence, Italy Posts: 28	Health to all, maybe it has nothing to do with it, but I couldn't help but notice an extraordinary similarity between these dagger canes put up for auction and the sword mentioned in these posts. The angle formed by the horse's foot is different, but the horseshoe is there ... is it a "blade change"? Duccio Attached Images

3rd October 2020, 02:09 PM	#23
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,418	Cool very much in the same taste for posh hunting types.

5th October 2020, 11:57 PM

#24

blindside

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Location: Kennewick, WA

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Duccio

Health to all,
maybe it has nothing to do with it, but I couldn't help but notice an extraordinary similarity between these dagger canes put up for auction and the sword mentioned in these posts.
The angle formed by the horse's foot is different, but the horseshoe is there ... is it a "blade change"?

Duccio

Any background on these pieces? I do admit the style is similar.

6th October 2020, 03:47 PM

#25

Duccio

Member

Join Date: May 2020

Location: Florence, Italy

Posts: 28

Quote:

Originally Posted by blindside

Any background on these pieces? I do admit the style is similar.

Very vague description, auction-style ...
"Two horse hoof-form dagger canes Various dates mid to late 19th century Comprising a horn and bamboo dagger cane, the carved horn handle in the form of a horse hoof with steel-cut bead nails, the 13-inch Solingen-style steel blade unsheathed by release button at collar, with modern rubber ferrule; and a horn and spotted bamboo dagger cane, the carved horn handle in the form of a horse hoof with tortoiseshell horseshoe and steel-cut bead nails, the 12-inch steel blade unsheathed by release button at white metal filigree collar, modern rubber ferrule over original horn ferrule. (2).L 36 in. (longest) PROVENANCE: The collection of award-winning independent film director Larry Clark, New York."

we ask Larry?

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