By a collector, for collectors

David · 5th April 2018, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony G.

Hi

How I can buy the book and is it still available for sale? Thank you.

Hi Anthony. We keep the commercial off the regular forums as a rule, but you can find a posting of this book in the Keris Swap Forum where you can find such information. Thanks!

Seerp Visser · 5th April 2018, 06:49 PM

jagabuwana,

I know both books mentioned in this thread.
The Javanese kris (Der Kris der Javaner), i should recommend.

Dr. Groneman was a physician, not an empu and even not a blacksmith.
Some parts of the work performed by Karja di Krama were even not described by Dr. Groneman, so most likely, they were not shown to him.

When you want to learn to forge a keris, you will have to find the answers to a lot of remaining questions.

But..... that is a good training and wil give you a lot of satisfaction each time you approach closer to the results you want to reach.

You will find out that the empu's were real masters, but also these days i see very good forging work and beautiful results.

I am practizing the forging of the keris, made by karja di Krama, since 2014 and get the feeling that i am coming close (i am a blacksmith by profession).

Wenever yo might have a specific question i can help you with, you may always contact me. If i know the answer i will tell you.

jagabuwana · 5th April 2018, 11:36 PM

thank you everyone, this has all been very helpful.

Seerp, thank you for offering your knowledge and I'm sure there's a lot I can learn.

Anthony G. · 6th April 2018, 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Hi Anthony. We keep the commercial off the regular forums as a rule, but you can find a posting of this book in the Keris Swap Forum where you can find such information. Thanks!

Many thanks, David.

A. G. Maisey · 7th April 2018, 01:32 PM

Kai, I regret I am not free to detail the major missing step in the forging process presented by Dr. Gronemann. There are a number of steps that have been omitted in Dr. Gronemann's account, and I am not at all certain as to why.

The craftsman may have concealed parts of the process, or Dr. Gronemann may not have understood what he was looking at. Or perhaps he felt that it was not necessary to give a blow by blow account, perhaps in his judgement, an overview was all that was required.

I think I can probably say this much:- certain steps are required to preserve any intentional pamor pattern. Examine Dr. Gronemann's description and see if you can identify these steps.

I do not have access to this book at the present time, so I am unable to pursue any detailed discussion, I am running on memory.

I know that Seerp has been working on keris production for a very extended period of time, and I fully accept that he is an experienced tradesman, however, in spite of this, my own experience in keris production demonstrated to me that once basic forge technology and technique is understood, the production of a forging from which a keris is carved is neither a lengthy, nor a difficult process, when simple mlumah pamor patterns are involved.

When pamor miring is involved the levels of difficulty rise and only truly talented craftsmen can successfully accomplish the required pattern welds.

The time and difficulty involved in forge work, whether pamor mlumah or pamor miring is involved shrink into insignificance when compared with the time and difficulty involved in the layout and carving of a keris blade.

Everybody talks about beautifully forged blades, but the real challenge comes with carving, most especially so when only traditional tools are used.

In fact, both old-time empus, and many, if not most current era keris makers regarded and regard the hands on forging of a blade below their status. They use smiths and their assistants for the forge work, which they may or may not supervise, depending upon the level of difficulty involved.

Probably the best sources to assist in gaining an understanding of the forge work involved in keris production are re-prints of old blacksmithing text books, and the books that have been published in recent years by people like Jim Hrisoulis.

I repeat:- the forge work is not difficult: I forged and finished my first keris blade after about 3 eight hour days of instruction in forge work. This a very poor effort at a keris, but it did qualify as one, and it does bear simple wos wutah pamor.

By profession I am an auditor.

My introduction to forge work was with the use of a coal fired forge, which means that when it came to welding, I needed to produce my own coke from the coal. I later used coke that was ready to use, I used charcoal, and I used gas, but I never used gas on keris work. Welding in gas is about as difficult as making a chocolate cake.

jagabuwana · 9th April 2018, 04:38 AM

Thank you, Alan. I'll get my hands on Dr Groneman's book eventually, and will see if I can identify the steps involved in intentional pamor creation.

It's also heartening to hear that the forging itself is not all too difficult. I plan to do some blacksmithing courses, after which I hope I can begin to make a keris.
When you say "carving" do you refer to when elements such as the sogokan, ada-ada, greneng etc. are fashioned? If I thought the forging was going to be difficult, then these seem far more tedious and surgical.

A. G. Maisey · 11th April 2018, 01:48 PM

The forging that the keris is carved from is only approximate to the finished keris, so yes, if I say "carving" I'm talking about all the metal that needs to be removed to produce a finished keris. Modern makers use modern tools, various types of electric grinders and so on, but the traditional tools are files and scrapers.The electric tools speed up production, which means that keris can be produced at a price that people can afford to pay. These same modern makers could as easily use the old traditional tools, but the time used would rise a lot, which means the price would rise a lot, and buyers are generally not willing to pay for weeks of work as opposed to days of work.

jagabuwana · 24th April 2018, 12:15 PM

I see, yes that makes sense. When you made your first keris, what dhapur did you choose and why? Is there a particular dhapur that is commonly attempted or made first by a maker, according to tradition?

A. G. Maisey · 25th April 2018, 01:05 AM

The first keris I made was a patrem in Dhapur Brojol, Pamor Wos Wutah. It was crude. It was not a matter of choice, it was a matter of making all I was capable of making at that time.

The second keris I made was made under the supervision of Empu Suparman Supowijoyo, it was a full size Surakarta keris, Sinom Robyong, pamor wos wutah. This dhapur was chosen for me by Empu Suparman because it covers all of the most difficult ricikan:- if you can make Sinom Robyong, you can make anything.

I know of no traditions governing what dhapur should be made first by a beginning maker.

5th April 2018, 06:49 PM	#2
Seerp Visser Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Belgium Posts: 37	jagabuwana, I know both books mentioned in this thread. The Javanese kris (Der Kris der Javaner), i should recommend. Dr. Groneman was a physician, not an empu and even not a blacksmith. Some parts of the work performed by Karja di Krama were even not described by Dr. Groneman, so most likely, they were not shown to him. When you want to learn to forge a keris, you will have to find the answers to a lot of remaining questions. But..... that is a good training and wil give you a lot of satisfaction each time you approach closer to the results you want to reach. You will find out that the empu's were real masters, but also these days i see very good forging work and beautiful results. I am practizing the forging of the keris, made by karja di Krama, since 2014 and get the feeling that i am coming close (i am a blacksmith by profession). Wenever yo might have a specific question i can help you with, you may always contact me. If i know the answer i will tell you.

5th April 2018, 11:36 PM	#3
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 277	thank you everyone, this has all been very helpful. Seerp, thank you for offering your knowledge and I'm sure there's a lot I can learn.

7th April 2018, 01:32 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,738	Kai, I regret I am not free to detail the major missing step in the forging process presented by Dr. Gronemann. There are a number of steps that have been omitted in Dr. Gronemann's account, and I am not at all certain as to why. The craftsman may have concealed parts of the process, or Dr. Gronemann may not have understood what he was looking at. Or perhaps he felt that it was not necessary to give a blow by blow account, perhaps in his judgement, an overview was all that was required. I think I can probably say this much:- certain steps are required to preserve any intentional pamor pattern. Examine Dr. Gronemann's description and see if you can identify these steps. I do not have access to this book at the present time, so I am unable to pursue any detailed discussion, I am running on memory. I know that Seerp has been working on keris production for a very extended period of time, and I fully accept that he is an experienced tradesman, however, in spite of this, my own experience in keris production demonstrated to me that once basic forge technology and technique is understood, the production of a forging from which a keris is carved is neither a lengthy, nor a difficult process, when simple mlumah pamor patterns are involved. When pamor miring is involved the levels of difficulty rise and only truly talented craftsmen can successfully accomplish the required pattern welds. The time and difficulty involved in forge work, whether pamor mlumah or pamor miring is involved shrink into insignificance when compared with the time and difficulty involved in the layout and carving of a keris blade. Everybody talks about beautifully forged blades, but the real challenge comes with carving, most especially so when only traditional tools are used. In fact, both old-time empus, and many, if not most current era keris makers regarded and regard the hands on forging of a blade below their status. They use smiths and their assistants for the forge work, which they may or may not supervise, depending upon the level of difficulty involved. Probably the best sources to assist in gaining an understanding of the forge work involved in keris production are re-prints of old blacksmithing text books, and the books that have been published in recent years by people like Jim Hrisoulis. I repeat:- the forge work is not difficult: I forged and finished my first keris blade after about 3 eight hour days of instruction in forge work. This a very poor effort at a keris, but it did qualify as one, and it does bear simple wos wutah pamor. By profession I am an auditor. My introduction to forge work was with the use of a coal fired forge, which means that when it came to welding, I needed to produce my own coke from the coal. I later used coke that was ready to use, I used charcoal, and I used gas, but I never used gas on keris work. Welding in gas is about as difficult as making a chocolate cake.

9th April 2018, 04:38 AM	#6
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 277	Thank you, Alan. I'll get my hands on Dr Groneman's book eventually, and will see if I can identify the steps involved in intentional pamor creation. It's also heartening to hear that the forging itself is not all too difficult. I plan to do some blacksmithing courses, after which I hope I can begin to make a keris. When you say "carving" do you refer to when elements such as the sogokan, ada-ada, greneng etc. are fashioned? If I thought the forging was going to be difficult, then these seem far more tedious and surgical.

11th April 2018, 01:48 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,738	The forging that the keris is carved from is only approximate to the finished keris, so yes, if I say "carving" I'm talking about all the metal that needs to be removed to produce a finished keris. Modern makers use modern tools, various types of electric grinders and so on, but the traditional tools are files and scrapers.The electric tools speed up production, which means that keris can be produced at a price that people can afford to pay. These same modern makers could as easily use the old traditional tools, but the time used would rise a lot, which means the price would rise a lot, and buyers are generally not willing to pay for weeks of work as opposed to days of work.

24th April 2018, 12:15 PM	#8
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 277	I see, yes that makes sense. When you made your first keris, what dhapur did you choose and why? Is there a particular dhapur that is commonly attempted or made first by a maker, according to tradition?

25th April 2018, 01:05 AM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,738	The first keris I made was a patrem in Dhapur Brojol, Pamor Wos Wutah. It was crude. It was not a matter of choice, it was a matter of making all I was capable of making at that time. The second keris I made was made under the supervision of Empu Suparman Supowijoyo, it was a full size Surakarta keris, Sinom Robyong, pamor wos wutah. This dhapur was chosen for me by Empu Suparman because it covers all of the most difficult ricikan:- if you can make Sinom Robyong, you can make anything. I know of no traditions governing what dhapur should be made first by a beginning maker.