War Shillelagh

[RomaRana]

Just a side note. The real Monk was actually named Monk Eastman. He was a turn of the century (1900) Jewish gang leader on the Lower East Side.

[David]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monk_Eastman

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by RomaRana

Just a side note. The real Monk was actually named Monk Eastman. He was a turn of the century (1900) Jewish gang leader on the Lower East Side.

Now THAT'S interesting!! and wonder if he got the idea of notching the club from the dime novel boys writing on gunfighters, or if the idea was his own form of psychological warfare.
Along these lines comes to mind Buford Pusser, the southern sheriff in "Walking Tall".

Best regards,
Jim

[RomaRana]

I don't have my books with me and I might be slightly off on the details, but the story behind Monk's notches was that he was a Sherriff (bouncer) in a wild bar in his younger days. Every time he whacked somebody and threw them out of the bar he put a notch on his club.

When he reached 39 marks he clubbed a random person to make it an even 40.

edit to add,

Just looked at the wiki link it was for a even fifty.

[Gavin Nugent]

Nice subject guys and with great historical relevance.

I'd like to offer a few points from my experience thus far.

Originally Posted by Queequeg

It also looks like he had the end painted, perhaps with tar or pitch. Dipping the head in hot tar would certainly seal any cracks and enhance its durability.

So, has anyone here ever seen or heard of a shillelagh that big? Or is this just strictly the idea of the movie prop makers?

With comparison to the images below that I have supplied from my small collection of walking sticks and with Monk being a true Irish man I would in the first instance think that his Shillelagh would be made from Irish Black thorn.

This is some text I have gathered from other sources;

Irish Blackthorn;

"These time-honoured, one-piece Blackthorn Shillelaghs are selected and cut from dense thickets sourced from the forests of Ireland.

Blackthorn: Prunus spinosa, is a relative of cherries and plums. Sloe, the blue-black fruits are edible, but bitter until after the first frost. The name for the blackthorn in Ogham, a language used by the Druids, is straif, the origin of the word "strife" and is about Conflict."

As seen in my images below, the bark is also present on the root ball head in places. Looking at the initial images supplied of Monk by Queequeg, I too can see bark present on the root ball head. I would say that he is using a very large piece of blackthorn root-ball and trunk and the handle where the notches are, has been stripped of bark and is consistent with the colour presented on mine where time and use has worn away the bark. The full consistent colour of the head of Monk's is due to lacquer that is also present on some parts of mine.

As mine is a daily user along side the hounds when I walk them, I know a single blow from one of these could drop a man for good and I have tested it on inanamate objects with devistating effect, so it is no surprise that Monk had 50 notches on his.

The one I have pictured is approx 100 years old.

Gav

[Jim McDougall]

Thats some intriguing history Gav, I didnt know that about the term for the wood used and its association with the use of the shillelagh.
All this talk about these has just reminded me that my wife is intensely of Irish ancestry.....oh oh!!

All the best,
Jim

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thats some intriguing history Gav, I didnt know that about the term for the wood used and its association with the use of the shillelagh.
All this talk about these has just reminded me that my wife is intensely of Irish ancestry.....oh oh!!

All the best,
Jim

Best be careful Jim, she may now want one to keep you in line

Gav

[David]

Originally Posted by freebooter

With comparison to the images below that I have supplied from my small collection of walking sticks and with Monk being a true Irish man I would in the first instance think that his Shillelagh would be made from Irish Black thorn.

Ah, but was Monk really a "true Irish man"? It does seem fairly obvious that his character was based on Monk Eastman (Osterman), a Jew from Brooklyn who often used the name Delaney, probably to earn himself creds with other Irish gang members. So possibly the movie character Monk McGinn is just playing at being Irish.
Also if the shillelagh was made in the States it seems far more likely that it wood be made of local wood instead of imported Irish Black Thorn. As for the movie prop itself i haven't a clue, though i am not so sure that they would have gone out of their way to create a prop specifically made of Black Thorn since very, very few viewers would give it a second thought.

[Jim McDougall]

Right you are Gav!! and frankly I'm glad they dont use 'rolling pins' anymore, remember the old cartoon cliche', I think the strip was "Andy Capp" or something like that, where the frustrated wife always bopped the unwary husband with her 'tool of the trade'. I guess she baked a lot.

Good points David, and the fact that this movie character was based on a figure completely outside the Irish gangs and of later period clearly shows the licence used by film directors to gain aesthetic effect.

I have really enjoyed looking into the authenticity of certain weapons often portrayed in some movies over the years. One that I recall was the unusual 'gunstock' club used by Russell Means as the warrior Chingachgook in "The Last of the Mohicans". I recall being intrigued by the stunning blue color of this odd boomerang looking thing with dagger blade protruding. I went berserk as usual with research and ended up talking with the guy who actually made the weapons for the movie, if I recall he made three, and somewhere in 'the archives' are photos he sent. In speaking with arms authority Norm Flayderman, he noted these were of course, not made from gunstocks, just colloquially called that, and they were used mostly by Plains tribes rather than woodland.
Just the same, the weapon chosen seems to have lent well to the movie.

If I may, one more example;
In "Sleepy Hollow" the 'Headless Horseman' played by Christopher Walken uses a terrifying looking sword that is purely fantasy. I looked deeply into history of the Hessian troops that were in upstate New York during the Revolutionary War, and these troops of the cavalry units from Germany were inadvertantly not mounted. Thier horses had been left behind, though they did carry, in some degree, the huge cavalry swords of the period, brass hilts with odd birdhead pommels and long straight blades. They were so long and cumbersome, and virtually useless fighting dismounted.
But the one in the movie, and used on horseback with a wild stallion....frightening!!!

As they always say...hooray for Hollywood!

All the best,
Jim

[RomaRana]

When Martin Scorsese was converting Herbert Asbury’s non fiction book, The Gangs of New York, to a movie he liked the story of Monk Eastman so much that he simply co-opted much of the character and made him Irish to fit the story.

Also, if you read the book the weapons of choice seem to be brickbats and iron pipes rolled up in newspapers for concealment (Manhattan ethonographic weapon?). I guess it was hard to walk around with a club during any historical period in NYC.

Another side note, the character Bill the Butcher in the movie is the real deal. I have tracked him down at the NYC Municipal archives and in the NYPL Social Sciences Library. I even found an insurance map of his butcher shop in the Bowery.

[Lew]

Originally Posted by RomaRana

I don't have my books with me and I might be slightly off on the details, but the story behind Monk's notches was that he was a Sherriff (bouncer) in a wild bar in his younger days. Every time he whacked somebody and threw them out of the bar he put a notch on his club.

When he reached 39 marks he clubbed a random person to make it an even 40.

edit to add,

Just looked at the wiki link it was for a even fifty.

Now that is very interesting a Jewish gangster with a big shtick.