Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 30th January 2016, 05:24 PM   #1
Marcus
Member
 
Marcus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 420
Default Matchlock accessories

This Indian matchlock has a couple conical holders for accessories, plus a chain as a keeper for something. I assume one of the holders would have had a pick for cleaning the touchhole. What else is missing?
Thanks,
Marcus
Attached Images
 
Marcus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th January 2016, 06:07 PM   #2
kahnjar1
Member
 
kahnjar1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 2,586
Default

Hi Marcus,
I think that both the conical holders are for holding the match cord. The one on the left likely for holding the cord in place otherwise it would just fall off the gun. The other for extinguishing the match or holding the hot end so that it does not go out.
Here are some other pics of a similar setup. The first 2 are of an Omani matchlock. The pierced holder is to retain the hot match and the other for extinguishing it.
The last is on an Indian matchlock and has a pricker as well as the match holder.
Stu
Attached Images
   
kahnjar1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th January 2016, 07:13 PM   #3
Pukka Bundook
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 802
Default

Hello Marcus,

That looks a very nice matchlock.

Can you at some time show us some more of it? and details of the engraving behind the breech?

I think the slim conical holder is for the pick to clean the touchhole. This pick would probably be attached to the chain, as it was a small item and could easily be lost.

The larger conical piece was I'm sure as Stu says, for extinguishing the match.

Do you have any ideas where in India it originates, and when?
We normally are in the dark on these, and it seems 18th/19th Century covers most of everything!
How is the bore?
Again, I would like to see pictures of all the details.

Richard.
Pukka Bundook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th January 2016, 07:20 PM   #4
Marcus
Member
 
Marcus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 420
Default more pictures

I previously posted this for sale for an acquaintance but there was only one offer that was far from the asking price. I made my own offer which was accepted. Here are the pictures on the swap forum.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20757
Marcus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th January 2016, 07:51 PM   #5
kahnjar1
Member
 
kahnjar1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 2,586
Default

I notice that in the "Sale" pics there is another piece attached which is not now shown.
I agree with Richard but am not sure that the horizontal tube is for the pricker. There MUST be some sort of holder to attach the match to the gun otherwise it would just fall out and be lost.
Maybe the "missing" piece is the match holder?
Stu
Attached Images
 
kahnjar1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th January 2016, 08:18 PM   #6
Marcus
Member
 
Marcus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 420
Default missing piece

Thanks, I'll have to see if that can be found.
Marcus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st January 2016, 12:54 AM   #7
Pukka Bundook
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 802
Default

Stu,

To quote you;
"There MUST be some sort of holder to attach the match to the gun otherwise it would just fall out and be lost. "

I don't know that much about matchlocks, but can't see how the match can be lost, as it is wrapped around the stock behind the breech, and the other end is in the jaws of the serpent.
European matchlocks have no match holder, apart form the serpent, and the match was often wrapped around either the barrel or the arm.

I suppose if a very short length of match was used this could be a possibility, but such a short length would be unusual and the jaws would hold it well enough. Am I missing something obvious?? (Wouldn't be the first time!!)

Marcus,
Thank you for the link to the other photos. Very kind of you!

Best regards
Richard.
Pukka Bundook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st January 2016, 02:43 AM   #8
kahnjar1
Member
 
kahnjar1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 2,586
Default

Hi Richard,
Yes you are of course right. I was not thinking about the match being wrapped around the stock, as I have not seen any Indian matchlocks with wrapped match cords as one usually sees on Omani ones. My mind was set on the pic at the beginning of this thread where the cord is only a short piece.
Stu
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook
Stu,

To quote you;
"There MUST be some sort of holder to attach the match to the gun otherwise it would just fall out and be lost. "

I don't know that much about matchlocks, but can't see how the match can be lost, as it is wrapped around the stock behind the breech, and the other end is in the jaws of the serpent.
European matchlocks have no match holder, apart form the serpent, and the match was often wrapped around either the barrel or the arm.

I suppose if a very short length of match was used this could be a possibility, but such a short length would be unusual and the jaws would hold it well enough. Am I missing something obvious?? (Wouldn't be the first time!!)

Marcus,
Thank you for the link to the other photos. Very kind of you!

Best regards
Richard.
kahnjar1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st January 2016, 02:41 PM   #9
Pukka Bundook
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 802
Default

And you in turn are also quite right Stu,
As keeping a short length in place like that in the photo would be the very devil!
I'll see if I can dig out a photo of a torador ready for use. :-)

R.
Pukka Bundook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st February 2016, 12:40 AM   #10
rickystl
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: St. Louis, MO area.
Posts: 1,577
Default

Hi Marcus.
That is a very nice Torador. I really like the iron chisel work and engraving. Very tastefully done. as mentioned above, the large cone would have been used to extinguish the match cord while not in use and help keep the cord tip dry during transit. The small horizonal cone would be to store the vent pick that would also be attached with a chain.
It would be interesting to know what the item is that Stu pointed out. Have no idea what it is.
Again, super nice Torador.

Rick
rickystl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st February 2016, 03:04 AM   #11
Pukka Bundook
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 802
Default

Stu,

Here are a couple of old paintings with the gun ready for use, with matchcord wrapped around the buttstock;


The first is of Shah Jahangir. (son of Shah Jahan)

Rick, I have no clue what the other little accessory is, it is wired in place and the wire looks new. Maybe not related at all??

All the best,
Richard.
Attached Images
  
Pukka Bundook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st February 2016, 12:49 PM   #12
Marcus
Member
 
Marcus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 420
Default Where and when

Thanks for all the comments and information. Would people guess this was Mughal? Happy also to hear opinions about age.
Marcus
P.S. The short bit of match was just cut for the recent pictures. It actually is a bit too thick that serpent. It fits my Japanese matchlock better. I have timed its burn as 5 minutes per inch.
Marcus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st February 2016, 02:16 PM   #13
Pukka Bundook
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 802
Default

Marcus,

I do wish All Indian arms were easier to date!
As most remained very much the same from the time of Akbar to the mid 19th century, it is only in small details or decoration that we might see differences.
Even then, decoration could and often was added later so we are a bit at sea.

In Robert Elgood's books, he will attribute a certain matchlock to a certain period, but I would very much like to know Why such attribution is made!
"OK, What makes this one mid 18th century?" type of thing.
I have looked and looked at matchlocks from the Indian sub -continent, and have found up to now very little evidence for age.
It would appear that barrels with a very heavy, parallel breech, then a turned section, are somewhat later than those with a tapered breech, but that is something I am still working on.
Of course, a nice inscription helps!...........butvnot very often!
If anyone else knows what signs to look for in dating these arms, I would be most grateful to learn.
If I had to guess, I'd say yours was late 18th C,- early 19th c. going by the engraving on the lock -plates.
Might be wrong, and I hope if so, someone can Tell me why I'm wrong!

Interesting that my homemade matchcord burns at the same rate, Marcus.
(Inch in 5 minutes)
Pukka Bundook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st February 2016, 02:58 PM   #14
Jens Nordlunde
Member
 
Jens Nordlunde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,710
Default

Unfortunately Richard is right. Decorations and inscriptions could have been added later. To this comes that even in India, centuries ago, faking an inscription with the name of a famous smiths name was not uncommon, or maybe adding a date years before the gun was made.
But on the other hand, the decoration and the inscription could be of the same time as the gun :-).
Jens Nordlunde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st February 2016, 08:30 PM   #15
stenoyab
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 43
Default

Heres one I own, the cover for the pan, the vent pick, the pan scraper are all held by chains. The fourth chain I assume was to hold one end of the matchcord...... sorry my matchcord is an old shoe lace.... but it shows what I mean.

I have another matchlock with a tube on the side with a small vent pircker in it, that is held purely by friction, no chain.
Attached Images
 
stenoyab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd February 2016, 01:20 AM   #16
Pukka Bundook
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 802
Default

Stenoyab,

That is an interesting arrangement.
Is the pan -cover hinged, or does it come off for firing?

I ask, as the accessories you show appear to fit into holes ahead of the pan.
I have seen these holes before, mostly square, and when we see these, there is apparently no hinged pan -cover. A close -up of the pan both exposed and covered, from above would be really appreciated!

It looks a nice and interesting arm.
In another thread, I would like to see this and the other you mention.

Marcus,
I am wondering if the small mystery implement on your gun was meant to be attached by the ring at the opposite end? If attached in that manner, the lit match would push into the far end, and with this tube having a hole in the side, the match could be kept lit without scorching anything.

Just a guess and al that!

Best regards,

Richard.
Pukka Bundook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd February 2016, 03:18 PM   #17
stenoyab
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 43
Default

Hi Richard,
The pan cover is seperate on one of the chains, the chains and pan scraper are silver, as are the swivels and some of the other furniture.

If not for the middle hole you could have thought this was missing a hinged pan cover, but I don't think it ever had one.

Ot of interest this matchlock still has its original bayonet attached, I did post this on the forum over 10 years ago, but the old post seems to be lost now.

If your interest is in pan covers, I have a relic matchlock with a sprung pan cover, released via a catch towards the rear of the stock.
Attached Images
  

Last edited by stenoyab : 2nd February 2016 at 04:54 PM.
stenoyab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd February 2016, 04:45 PM   #18
stenoyab
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 43
Default

This is another matchlock that I'd consider more of a military pattern to most, being of a short length and very plain. The holder on the rear of the side plate holds a vent priker.
Attached Images
 
stenoyab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd February 2016, 04:52 PM   #19
stenoyab
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 43
Default

I forget where I got these photos from, was over 10 years ago, but they do show atleast one Indian matchlock with purpose made holes to allow the cord to wrap through the butt.
Attached Images
  
stenoyab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd February 2016, 02:23 AM   #20
Pukka Bundook
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 802
Default

Hello again Stenoyab,

Thanks for all the photos!

I have a couple of Persian barrels when they get here, and they have a couple of square holes ahead of the pan, so must be for something similar to the one in your first photos.
I did read in the descriptions of some of the matchlocks collected after the surrender of Oudh, that they did not normally have pan covers. The odd one did, and this was noted. So, it would appear they too were of this type.

I have seen the holes in the stock for the matchcord. I suppose if both ends passed through holes of this sort, it would prevent the match coming loose when carried. Clever what?!

I would like to see a photo of your relic with the sprung pan -cover!
Maybe under another thread so we don't hi-jack Marcus' thread too much!

I Really want to get a torador all fettled up for shooting!
I do have a nice barrel or so coming from the UK in due course.
I wonder why spell-check thinks it is so smart, and keeps turning Torador into toreador!??

Richard.
Pukka Bundook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th February 2016, 10:01 PM   #21
Marcus
Member
 
Marcus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 420
Default Whats it

Quote:
Originally Posted by kahnjar1
I notice that in the "Sale" pics there is another piece attached which is not now shown.
I agree with Richard but am not sure that the horizontal tube is for the pricker. There MUST be some sort of holder to attach the match to the gun otherwise it would just fall out and be lost.
Maybe the "missing" piece is the match holder?
Stu


It found its way to me. It looks more like a carburetor part than a gun part, hollow with reed like cutouts. Probably meant to slide up and down to change air or fluid mix. No clue why it was with the gun when I first saw it.
Attached Images
  
Marcus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th February 2016, 07:13 PM   #22
rickystl
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: St. Louis, MO area.
Posts: 1,577
Default

Marcus:
Thanks for starting this Thread and Posting all the photos of these accessories. I've been able to add to my knowledge of these guns.
I've often wondered why some of the pans were made without covers. It appears that many were made with seperate covers secured with a chain versus pinned on the pan as per the above photos. That could answer the question. Thanks again for starting this Thread.
Rick.
rickystl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th February 2016, 07:24 PM   #23
rickystl
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: St. Louis, MO area.
Posts: 1,577
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus
It found its way to me. It looks more like a carburetor part than a gun part, hollow with reed like cutouts. Probably meant to slide up and down to change air or fluid mix. No clue why it was with the gun when I first saw it.


Marcus: This is a real mystery. Hmmmm. I have no idea, but it seems it would have something to do with the matchcord The patina seems to match with the other accessories. But there has to be a reason for the reed style cut vs. a simple hole. Just don't know.

Richard: Sounds like you are planning to make a "shootable" Torador (?) If so, that's great. Now I won't feel so lonely. LOL. The gunsmith said he will be working on my barrel before the end of March. (have to wait in line with everyone else).

Rick.
rickystl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th February 2016, 07:32 PM   #24
rickystl
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: St. Louis, MO area.
Posts: 1,577
Default

As long as we're on this subject, here is another small mystery I've yet to rationalize. Here is a photo of my Torador and another photo. Notice on the right hand wrist area there is a hole drilled. The hole was intentionally drilled, but nothing in it. Any idea for the purpose?

Rick.
Attached Images
  
rickystl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th February 2016, 07:37 PM   #25
Pukka Bundook
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 802
Default

Rick,

Yes indeed! I have wanted to make up one for shooting for some time!

I Think Marcus may be correct on his carb part, as it has been lathe-turned by the marks on it, not hand -made.

Look forward to progress repots on your barrel!

R.
Edited to say our posts crossed, Rick.

Hole in stock;
Possibly to push the loose end of the matchcord in, so it didn't unwind from around the stock?? Maybe try it and see....

These little intrigues are interesting! and at one time would be Common knowledge.
(Like someone in the future finding a lace-up shoe with no lace, and trying to figure out what the holes were for!)
Pukka Bundook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th February 2016, 08:11 PM   #26
Marcus
Member
 
Marcus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 420
Default another Matchlock acessory

Not necessarily a correct fit to my musket but a nice accessory nonetheless, I just bought this Sangin from Artzi.
Attached Images
 
Marcus is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 05:26 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.