Shotley Bridge swordmakers

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I would like to copy in here the following~

[Bhttps://oldswords.com/articles/The%2...words-v1i4.pdf [/B]

where at notes on blades and collecting Shotley Bridge is named as a provider of basket hilts !!

Samuel Harvey needs to be observed to see where he fits into this ever revolving equation and I note he signed basket hilts seen at https://books.google.com.om/books?id...0maker&f=false page 36 where two cases are recorded for research although many more exist. Harveys work becomes slightly tangled with the Shotley factory and here it can be more clearly separated out...

In addition Samuel Harvey is noted with the SH ... stamp. I have also noted HAR...with VEY under in a square stamp format below.. and Harvey on various different parts of the weapon. Also below the first English cuphilt by Harvey...
The H in some weapons has been changed as you note earlier to a B in a forlorn attempt to try to show Shotley Bridge as the centre of origin..This is usually done inside the running fox...There is no such blademark as SB. Most Harvey examples shown are from his factory in Birmingham.

See Below.

1. It is clear that there is a difference between the running wolf of Solingen and the running fox with its bushy tail.
2. Often as you note the SH (Samuel Harvey) is altered to read SB ..
3. I suspect the sword with roughly applied SHOTLEY in capitals is a Solingen blade with lettering added later ... the wolf perhaps genuine. This could be an heirloom sword.
4. A probable Solingen sword appears with the talimanic 1414 Date and running wolf.

[urbanspaceman]

Hello Ibrahiim. I thought it unlikely you would venture to the depths of the industrial North; and, as I said, nothing is to be learned from visiting the place (unless you want to buy the Methodist Church which I noticed is for sale £245k... just joking).
Here are some photos from my local museum and from the Royal Armouries at Leeds.
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[urbanspaceman]

ps
Speaking of Reivers Ibrahiim: my mother's side of the family are Grahams, the most notorious of them all. We were generally over on the west side (Cumberland) unless we were stealing cattle and sheep, then we might pop over to Newcastle for the night.
It is most vexing, the lack of SB tri-form blades; all the evidence points to there being an abundance yet not a single example seems to have surfaced.
Are there many early English-made short-swords with Colichmarde or triangular blades? I've just bought a pretty mid 1800s French officer's sword made at Klingenthal, simply so I have an example of what it was all about. I would have much preferred - at least - an English example but I haven't seen anything accessible to date.
[IMG]

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

What is notable so far is the absence of any Shotley Bridge hollow ground blades. Nonsense to one side about the story of mercury filled blades naturally a joke in the trade at the time... but I have also heard of the term applied to the cutting edge as hollow grinding... To some extent that may be partly true but the Hollow Ground blade or Colichemarde form is much more interesting than simply that. Colichemarde were broader toward the throat with about 12 inches of quite thick broad blade sweeping to a narrower long blade of three edges; Triangular in cross section leading to a sharp point.

If there are none from Shotley Bridge could it mean that they either produced so few by hand (Solingen it is said churned these out with a grinding machine) or that Shotley, without the machine, gave up trying to compete? ...but the net effect is I am unable to source a single Hollow Blade of this type from there..

According to Wiki Quote"The Colichemarde blade configuration is widely thought to have been an invention of Graf von Königsmark, due to the similarity in pronunciation of their names. However, the first blades of this type date from before the Count's lifetime. The colichemarde first appeared about 1680 and was popular during the next 40 years at the royal European courts. It was especially popular with the officers of the French and Indian War period. George Washington was presented with one during his inauguration.

The widespread misapprehension that the colichemarde quickly ceased to be produced after 1720 dates to the opinion given by Sir Richard Burton in his "The Book of the Sword" dating to 1884. However, many securely dated colichemarde swords from as late as the 1770s can be found in collections.

This sword appeared at about the same time as the foil. However the foil was created for practicing fencing at court, while the colichemarde was created for dueling. It made frequent appearances in the duels of New Orleans. A descendant of the colichemarde is the épée, a modern fencing weapon. "Unquote.

see Hollow-Ground or "Colichemarde" Blades at https://www.militariahub.com/the-his...ritish-swords/

and http://swordscollection.blogspot.com...-xviii-th.html

See below ~Hollow Ground Colichemarde form...

[urbanspaceman]

I know I am wandering from the principle point of the thread here but, just briefly, to follow up on Ibrahiim's post (thank-you Sir) I have heard it said that the Colichemarde gave the ability to fend-off blows from the heavier blades such as rapiers and trans' rapiers due to its reinforced upper section, but that once rapiers left the duelling business then the constant gradual taper became the go-to blade for the de rigueur gentleman about town.
The French officer's sword photos I posted earlier is the style to which I refer.

[urbanspaceman]

Again, allowing the detour, I came across this statement made by Henry Wilkinson c.1850 with regard to the thrust as opposed to the cut (I have to say that surely from horse-back there is only the cut, but that aside):
"An old officer of the 11th Dragoons told me that it was proverbial through all the Peninsular War, that our Dragoons who were mostly brought into the hospital with slight punctured wounds in the chest or abdomen almost invariably died. The French Dragoons on the contrary had mostly cut or incised wounds and almost all recovered."

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Again, allowing the detour, I came across this statement made by Henry Wilkinson c.1850 with regard to the thrust as opposed to the cut (I have to say that surely from horse-back there is only the cut, but that aside):
"An old officer of the 11th Dragoons told me that it was proverbial through all the Peninsular War, that our Dragoons who were mostly brought into the hospital with slight punctured wounds in the chest or abdomen almost invariably died. The French Dragoons on the contrary had mostly cut or incised wounds and almost all recovered."

Through the entire century the argument between cut and thrust went on, and invariably the effort was for a sword blade which could deliver both effectively. The first British regulation sword was the M1796 light cavalry sabre, which was considered most effective at cuts resulting in ghastly wounds, and which the French considered barbaric. However in any cases they were survivable, where the thrust favored by the French was virtually always fatal, and in usually a long very painful way.

The heavy, chopping blades of the M1796 were ultimately replaced by the M1821 cavalry sabre with a 'spear' point' which could be used in a thrust with the sword held in high tierce, then used in slashing cuts as well.
There were of course issues in production, design and as always blade quality, which had plagued English sword making for the previous centuries.

[Jim McDougall]

Some years ago Ibrahiim was involved in trying to learn more about the basket hilt swords which were used in the border regions between England and Scotland, where groups of what were known as "border reivers' would take varying sides in the Scottish rebellions (1689-1746).

While the Scottish basket hilt forms which had evolved in the 16th century from apparent German and North European hilts are of course well known, the remarkable spectrum of usually more austere hilts of basket form and characteristically 'English' have been the subject of much investigation and discussion.

The wonderful book "British Basket Hilted Swords" by Dr. Cyril Mazansky (2005) presents thoroughly illustrated details on the Scottish and these English forms, however is focused entirely on typology. For illustrations accompanied by intriguing and pertinent details on the historical detail of these and many other European swords, the venerable "Sword and Blades of the American Revolution" by George Neumann (1973) has never been surpassed.

The reason I bring these up is that the questions pertaining to these English swords and where they were made lent to the idea that perhaps at least numbers of them were made at Shotley Bridge. Ibrahiim had brought up the crossed basket hilts device and other factors, but it was still unresolved back then.

As though many of these basket hilt type swords date from the early years of the 18th century and through the Revolutionary War, the question has been, did Shotley possibly provide some of these swords as it seems to have been active given records noting certain smiths there into the 19th c.

It is known that despite the primary sources of English sword making in some of the 'garrison' locations such as Glasgow and Sterling, in the east Edinburgh tended more Jacobite if I recall notes, and there were smaller locations throughout who would fabricate hilts and used the usually mostly German blades. This of course was standard throughout Scotland, the Highlands, and apparently of course England.

While Birmingham blades had been touted as terrible in times earlier in the century, by mid 18th century, the quality had been improved no doubt thanks to German presence in the industry in the early 17th century with Hounslow, followed by the much clouded Shotley Bridge entity.
It is well established that numbers of these English military form basket hilts were produced by Drury and Jeffries of London, as well as the much discussed Samuel Harvey of Birmingham.

What has drawn us to Harvey has been his propensity to use the running fox in the manner of the much purloined running wolf of Passau, which was used by Solingen, and later carried forth by the German makers in England.
It appears his activity began around 1750, and many of his blades, probably earlier ones, had the 'fox' with his initials.
I think this likely was to draw to the earlier use of the running wolf on both Hounslow and later many Shotley blades and to suggest that degree of quality as opposed to the Birmingham stigma.
I would point out here that a John Dawes of Birmingham seems to have also used the fox, but instances of his blades are far less known.( fig.10a, "the British Basket Hilted Cavalry Sword", A.D. Darling, 'Canadian Journal of Arms Collecting', Vo.7, #3, Jan. 1974, the example is the animal alone and suggests either Harvey or Dawes as producer, c.1750).

It has been suggested that the Hounslow makers did not use the running wolf, however in looking at the many examples in numbers of references the last few days, I have found considerable examples which did have the mark.
The running wolf of Passau began appearing on Solingen blades actually in contracts for makers of that city from a reference I have seen but have yet to retrieve.

In the advent of the English Civil Wars, Hounslow became a primary Parliamentary supplier (though several went to Oxford for the King), which was why a great many backswords, most of the 'mortuary' half basket hilt type were with German blades. Most of these have the sundry devices and markings well known in Europe and spuriously used in Solingen. One example (Neumann 250.S) has the running wolf and talismanic number 1469 (these are combinations not dates). Others of this period also have the well known ANDRIA FERARA so much associated with Solingen blades destined for Scotland. These often have the 'Genoan' sickle marks which were as widely copied as the running wolf.

Though it is clear that imported blades from Solingen were profoundly used (as recorded) and hilted in Hounslow, there were of course blades which were produced there, and some of them did bear the running wolf.




To Shotley Bridge:
The idea that there may have been some fabrication of military blades here does seem of course probable, but in what degree is unclear. We know of course that blades were being brought in for finishing, and it sounds as if hangers may well have been among them. However, there are numbers of the broadsword blades which are clearly military as in Neumann (p.146, 254.S) a semi basket hilt has a DE blade with pronounced mid ridge, and SHOTLEY BRIDG with date 1690 and WR (King William). William was of course William III of Orange and of the English crown.

It has been suggested that Shotley had supplied for both sides, and this blade so marked presents compelling suggestion that they may have.
The earlier notes regarding the numbers of Jacobite supporters in the Shotley venture presents the dilemma existing with this Dutch 'King'.
While the Dutch were Protestant and vehemently against the Catholic rule of Spain, this was directly in league with the English crown against the Jacobite cause in Scotland.
As typically German blades were typically it seems transported from Solingen via Holland, it presents interesting case.
The ship with blades for Mohll to Shotley (1703) was from Rotterdam.


To the Colichemarde:

According to Aylward, the term has not been reliably traced to any English of French literature. It is however generally held that the term is cognate interpretation alluding to John Phillip, Count von Konigsmark, a Swedish soldier who was a renowned duelist. It does appear he may have designed this anomalous blade profile in which the proto examples were of flat longitudinal section which left the upper portion wide for parry but the lower portion narrow for speed and thrust.
He was in London around 1661, which suggests that terminus post quem, but that this style went rather quickly out of fashion in civilian blades, giving way to the gradual taper of the triangular (hollow) blades. While mostly gone by first part of 18th c. with military officers, with their flair for flamboyant hubris, seem to have kept the form around, and even as late as 1780s, George Washington had one and other military use was known.

I just wanted to add results of past few days of research to continue this most fascinating topic.

[urbanspaceman]

I think the presence of the wolf/fox on Hounslow swords may be due to Benjamin Stone, a London Cutler and Freeman, who, from 1613 till 1642, was buying blades from everyone: including Solingen, Passau, Venice, Milan, Toledo and finally – of course – Hounslow; then selling the finished swords primarily to the Board of Ordnance.
For example: in June 1628 he delivered 800 swords to the Board of Ordnance: 350 Italian blades and 450 Solingen; all of these swords had basket hilts.
He finally set up his own mill in Hounslow by converting a corn mill on the New Cutt River. He then bought forged but unground blades from the local Germans, ground, polished and hilted them before putting them in his own scabbards and selling them with belts to the Tower.
He also re-fitted and re-furbished for the Board; plus, he sold finished blades to London cutlers. An enterprising chap!
Because Hounslow was then not part of London, the London Cutlers Company could not interfere: for example, he used predominantly cast brass hilts from his own foundry and this was not favoured by the London Cutlers.
By 1631 he was really cooking and delivered 4,356 swords at six shillings each - all with basket hilts – to the Tower. The numbers just kept rising after that to such a degree that in 1637 he petitioned the Privy Council not to use German imports as he could supply swords of equal quality made entirely in England.
The civil war had him re-locating to Oxford and he probably set up the king's Wolvergate mill there.
If during all that time and amongst the thousands of blades he supplied to the Board of Ordinance, there wasn't some marked Hounslow and also featuring a wolf/fox then I would be very surprised.
Information collated and published by Richard H. Bezdek; what an endeavour!
I've heard about Konigsmark Jim but also been told the Colichmarde existed prior to his birth. Where else it could have come from seems to baffle a lot of folk.

[urbanspaceman]

I've been told the crown and number 9 is an Ordnance inspector's proof mark; and that the hilt mark stands for 2nd battalion. Can anyone confirm this and possibly expand on this information. It is the hilt of what I believe to be an Oley of Shotley Bridge blade.
[IMG]

[Jim McDougall]

Looking further,

While many Parliamentary 'mortuary' type swords were certainly made in Hounslow, or at least using blades from them, other centers probably Oxford, Greenich or London probably were mounting German produced blades as well.

In 1620s, some references claim that the German makers left there to escape religious persecution. While the Thirty Years war was indeed an issue, one of the primary reasons for their departure was largely the collapse of the iron industry in Germany and their sources of supply. Actually one source claims that permits from Solingen were obtained by the British board of ordnance for them to work abroad. Actually they were already in Holland, and came from there.

From "Hounslow Hangers" by Anthony North, Spring 2004 London Park Lane Arms Fair journal.
"...although the factory at Hounslow seems to have closed in the 1670s, the blades made at Hounslow were obviously prized. They are often found on high quality English officers swords of the early 18th century. They are also found on some high quality silver hilted hunting hangers of the 1730s and 40s".

In some early narratives there are references to 'Dutch' hangers. These were actually often German ones transported to Great Britain.

In Aylward (1945, p.33), "...such SHOTLEY BRIDGE swords as are commonly seen are big, double edged weapons bearing the words Shotley Bridge in their fullers, and fitted with the Walloon hilts used by the cavalry in the Monmouth rebellion (1685) and the Marlborough campaign periods, but as the factory always claimed to specialize in HOLLOW BLADE small swords mounted with their productions might exist, though it does not seem that the tang mars which identify them are known.
It looks as though the company imported forgings from Solingen which it ground, tempered and finished at Shotley".

Many of these swords with Hounslow and Shotley blades were apparently well used in the American Revolution as illustrated in Nuemann (1973), so whether in original mounts, or just blade rehiltings, they had a long work life.

The mystery of the Shotley 'hollow' blades remains, and while begun as an enterprise to produce these fashionable gentlemans blades in 1685 it does seem likely that production of military swords was covertly intended. While the 'Hollow Sword Blade Co.' title was in place for this enterprise, it does seem that it was actually more intended to operate as a bank (against the Bank of England monopoly) and engage in real estate and trade ventures in South America and environs (South Sea trade).

The notions of religiously persecuted Germans relocating to this area to practice their faith and protect the secrecy of their craft is of course not the case. Actually some of the original German makers of Hounslow were engaged, and had of course been in England for some time as were their descendants. The notion of the iron deposits there are also questionable, as while iron there was present, it was not of the quality and nature for the processes of blade making.

The political turbulence mentioned with the Monmouth Rebellion, Jacobite Rebellions 1689-1746 and the Marlborough campaigns may well have accounted for the actual requirement for sword production of military type, rather than the civilian small sword form pretended in the original permits.

After the failure of the Hollow Sword Co. and subsequent degeneration of the sword production, it does seem that in some form, Shotley Bridge remained in some capacity, perhaps cutlery as in many other locations. The Oley family who seems to have perpetuated the Shotley tradition is another matter which needs more research.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Jim, It is certainly an interesting discussion and again your excellent pointers are very much appreciated.
The entire region in the days of the German immigrant sword makers was a hotbed of intrigue~ The whole business of the Jacobite rebellion was in ferment and it is here I wish to start. What degree of collusion was there with the sword-makers of Shotley Bridge? After Culloden many fighters from the Scottish side ran to the wilds of Durham, Northumberland and Cumberland where they formed an entirely separate although probably linked clan organisation known as The Moss Troopers who stole and robbed ...and were often caught and executed! It may be noted that Lord Derwentwater was tried and found guilty and executed for being a supporter of the Jacobite cause. Indeed such was the fervor and hatred for these brigands that the English set up a formidable military force at Newcastle and were unrelenting in tracking down sympathizers that many people caved in to government demands and openly expressed their government support. Mohll was caught with a load of swords and placed in jail only to harness important support and so he was released. It is said that there was some religious implication in pushing the Germans to elope with their sword secrets ...That would make the reasons Political and Religious ...a powerful enough combination linked to the obviously difficult situation in Solingen with the 30 year and later fighting taking place. That coupled with the intent in England to raise their game as far as sword making quality was concerned would probably suffice as to the reasons why they went.

If I may jump to the use of kilns at Shotley Bridge .. They were built certainly one at the south end of the Bridge and others further up river probably at the Forge and further up river a few miles on to Alansford . There is a even street in Shotley Bridge called Kiln Street. Somewhere I noted that materials were inported from Sweden ...ore?... for these kilns? No mines are reported in Shotley Bridge; coal or iron ore. There was plenty of wood... The swordmakers house stood in Wood Street..and Derwent meant oak valley. There was abundant Beech forest in the area. The water was excellent for tempering steel and for water wheel power. It is understood that the sandstone grit on the riverbed was ideal for sharpening and grinding blades.

In a further leap~ I question the Colichimarde situation...and the swords imported but initially confiscated when Mohl got arrested. If they were from Solingen they would surely have been stamped...My question being when was a sword stamped? There were a lot of these 1400 apparently but no definite detail of what sort of blades...nevertheless they would have been stamped I suspect...Solingen ! In all the examples seen so far ... and as far as I can see... No Colichimarde examples exist out of Shotley Bridge because they never had a machine capable of such grinding. Although this may not have been the only reason for its demise as other swords were being used...particularly in the Military ...It may have been a factor and why specialists were dispersed either back to Germany or to other English factories like Birmingham.

Post 28 sets another conundrum here... How do swords stamped with the Solingen mark of the running wolf appear with SHOTLEY BRIDGE stamped down the fullers? Are these examples of blades fetched by Mohl already with the wolf stamp or did shotley swordmakers place these ...It may mean they used both fox and wolf... but it seems odd. It is in fact the case that the hilts were often wire adorned in what is described at;

https://oldswords.com/articles/Smal...tibles-v1i1.pdf

which is a must read for this style.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Here is a half basket... as I begin to examine Scottish Basket hilts and since The Crown and Crossed Swords owned by the Swordmakers sports two giant swords as their Hotel Sign under a Crown..

https://www.yorkmuseumstrust.org.uk/...RvcnkmRk49JTJB

Also below for library purposes sword blade marks.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I note that Blade making in Britain had fallen off so much that in 1783 the London Cutler’s Company sought government permission to import blades duty free from the Continent and this provoked a Birmingham tool maker, Thomas Gill, to declare that he could produce British blades of equal quality. In 1786 the Honourable East India Company ordered 10,000 blades and each was to be subjected to a bending test. Of the 2,700 English-made blades 1,084 failed the test; of 1,400 German blades only 28 failed, and of Gill’s 2,650 only 4 failed. In addition to the bending test Gill had his blades struck flat, as hard as possible, on a block of cast iron and edgeways on a block of wrought iron and it is reported that some cut through the block.

--Frederick Wilkinson Swords and Daggers (p.58)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

In a bid to tie Shotley Bridge to Scottish forms I need to prove more links and in doing so cite the trade link below where a Shotley Bridge sword is paired with a Scottish Scabbard. It was common practise to have the sword made at one place and the hilt and/or scabbard made at another. There is no picture.

A BRASS HILTED OFFICER'S SWORD, LATE 17TH/EARLY 18TH CENTURY with double edged blade retaining traces of a brief inscription within a short fuller and stamped with the running fox of Shotley Bridge on each side (pitted), brass hilt comprising double shell-guard engraved with the owner's name 'Sir H, Liddell Bt', knuckle-guard, an additional pair of scrolling bars joining the knuckle-guard to the shell front and back, and spherical pommel (button chipped, quilon removed), and wooden grip with later copper wire binding, in an associated brass-mounted lather scabbard, the locket inscribed 'R.S.' on the front and with the maker's name 'J. Hunter, South Bridge, Edinburgh' (worn) 80cm; 31 1/2in blade Sir Henry Liddell (before1660-1723) gained the title of 3rd Baronet Liddell and was M.P. for Durham City, 1688-98, and for Newcastle 1701-5, and 1706-10.

[Jim McDougall]

More interesting entries Ibrahiim. The one regarding Gill and the ongoing competition and difficulties between German sword production and the English makers struggling to prove their skills which had been going on for over a century or more and lasted well through the 19th. In the 1780s these tests mentioned led to him and some others to begin using phrases and terms such as warranted, or in his case 'warranted never to fail' on their blades.
This practice continued until around 1810 or slightly later with Gill, Osborne and perhaps one or two others.

I think that the iron deposits known in Shotley areas were mostly 'ironstone' and inadequate for quality needed in blade forging. The steel imported was from Sweden I understand, much as it was to Solingen. As noted, the wood required was abundant.
In most of the entries in references I have seen, it is suggested that primarily Shotley was 'finishing' forged blades from Germany, probably via Holland (the ship Mohll's cargo was on was from Rotterdam). These seem to have been heavier broadsword or backsword blades for military swords and hangers (which appear to have been already mounted from the sound of the single bundle in the shipment).

The running wolf conundrum :
It seems that the Solingen applied running wolf was typically an almost chop mark type image, often barely recognizable as a specific creature. This was in accord with the way these had been applied in Passau in earliest forms.
There was little, if any, uniformity in these images, and in Wagner ("Cut and Thrust Weapons", Prague, 1967) the chart of these 'wolf' marks depicts the variation, but misleadingly adds years, suggesting any such chronology existed. It was entirely a matter of the worker applying the mark in nominal form.
Actually, by the time of Shotley Bridge in the latter 17th century, as far as I have known, the running wolf occurring on Solingen blades would have been an anomaly. In my opinion the blades with Shotley Bridge and running animal (looking more like a dog and actually recognizable) were probably finished there, and likely 'blanks' from Solingen.

The later canine figures used by Harvey (and possibly Dawes) in Birmingham seem to be a running fox (note plumed tail) and with Harvey using his initials enclosed. It would seem these were in earlier blades and alluded to the German quality which had been known from Hounslow times and Shotley. Remember that these blades were highly esteemed and still circulating. In later Harvey blades there were various marking with his name and initials but no fox.
The fox may well have recalled Shakespeare who used the term 'fox' to describe a fine sword blade in some of his works, and for a time became a colloquial term (' thou diest at the point of fox').

It seems like there were some blades with Shotley marks which were more of the rapier form with central fuller known on some of the English cup hilts, but I have never heard of a Shotley colichemarde. But then as previously noted, it is really unclear what they actually produced aside from the examples of military backsword or broadsword blades and some hangers.

Maybe somebody out there has seen Shotley marked blades and might post here in addition to those already shown.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Thanks Jim, It does seem that the formation of The Hollow Blade Company... and with it The Sword Blade Bank were subsidiary to the Sword Makers of Shotley Bridge but entirely separated by some sort of legal wizardry!... This allowed the Banking arm to operate in very murky waters indeed and with the South Seas Company (later implicated and of the South Seas Bubble fiasco) who were up to their necks in the slavery business. Many would argue that the slave trade financed in part the Industrial Revolution in the UK.. The upshot being that the big names simply used the Swordmakers credentials in pulling in finance and other names for their own grandisement.

See https://books.google.com.om/books?id...20bank&f=false

The thrust of this segment of my input suggests that the naming of the company and its association with the Shotley Bridge sword makers was irrelevant except for the prestigious linkage with certain branches of Royalty and influential business names and of no substance to do with blade production whatsoever. It therefor largely represents a degree of importance in the general smoke screen when unraveling this puzzle along with the blade in the hat story and the mercury in the hollow blade. The biggest flanneling escapade may yet turn out to be the entire story of the Hollow blade as quite unfounded and that no hollow blades of the Colichemarde form ever got made at Shotley Bridge.

[urbanspaceman]

Originally Posted by
A BRASS HILTED OFFICER'S SWORD, LATE 17TH/EARLY 18TH CENTURY with double edged blade retaining traces of a brief inscription within a short fuller and stamped with the running fox of Shotley Bridge on each side (pitted), brass hilt comprising double shell-guard engraved with the owner's name 'Sir H, Liddell Bt', knuckle-guard, an additional pair of scrolling bars joining the knuckle-guard to the shell front and back, and spherical pommel (button chipped, quilon removed), and wooden grip with later copper wire binding, in an associated brass-mounted lather scabbard, the locket inscribed 'R.S.' on the front and with the maker's name '[B

J. Hunter, South Bridge, Edinburgh[/B]' (worn) 80cm; 31 1/2in blade Sir Henry Liddell (before1660-1723) gained the title of 3rd Baronet Liddell and was M.P. for Durham City, 1688-98, and for Newcastle 1701-5, and 1706-10.

Hello Ibrahiim.
I had a look in Bezdek's book and I found four J. Hunters operating in Scotland. It looks like the scabbard was made between 1560 and 1580 then was re-used. We could probably find out what RS stood-for if we cared-to but there is no-one amongst his ancestors.
I gather there was no maker's mark on the hilt. It may have been an old hilt with his title added or he may have had a new one made. I can't say 'for his new blade' because this man never did any fighting (other than in Parliament) so the wear of the blade was not down to him or any of his descendants; one of whom was father to Alice of Wonderland fame. It was obviously all old when he acquired it - apart from his title on the hilt - and may have been assembled by various folk over the years.

Sword slipper James Hunter 1538–1548 Perth

Cutler James Hunter 1780–1810 Edinburgh
Sword slipper • Made midshipmen’s dirks and cold stream guard officers swords.

Armourer James Hunter 1560–D1580 Edinburgh
Sword maker • Master Armourer, 1570.
• When he died, he had 62 swords and 125 blades in stock.

Armourer James Hunter 1598–1608 Dundee
Sword maker • Son of David Hunter.

[urbanspaceman]

Of course, the brief (and faded) inscription may not be Shotley Bridge and the fox could have been from anywhere in the past - including Hounslow - if he bought it in London, or Solingen then hilted in Scotland in the 1500s; so the sword and hilt and scabbard may well have been contiguous.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I POSTED THIS AND IT IS A NOTE AT #62

A BRASS HILTED OFFICER'S SWORD, LATE 17TH/EARLY 18TH CENTURY with double edged blade retaining traces of a brief inscription within a short fuller and stamped with the running fox of Shotley Bridge on each side (pitted), brass hilt comprising double shell-guard engraved with the owner's name 'Sir H, Liddell Bt', knuckle-guard, an additional pair of scrolling bars joining the knuckle-guard to the shell front and back, and spherical pommel (button chipped, quilon removed), and wooden grip with later copper wire binding, in an associated brass-mounted lather scabbard, the locket inscribed 'R.S.' on the front and with the maker's name



As is commonly mixed up with the fox/wolf;...This description comes with no picture of the weapon thus it is suspect as being confused between the two animals. I think the weapon is stamped with the Passau Wolf NOT the fox. Clearly the wolf or running wolf which has several all stick like images of wolves was the Passau wolf famous on Solingen blades but reproduced in other schools of sword making excellence as a blade of quality mark. It is very different in structure to the running fox.

As will be seen ... The Running Fox was never done by Shotley Bridge...whereas the Passau wolf was... After all many of the sword smiths there were originally from Solingen. It remains to be seen if Shotley was importing a load of blades regularly from Solingen if the Passau wolf marks were all done at Shotley Bridge or already on the blades when they arrived ...or both! If Shotley was not stamping the Fox who was? It would appear that Samuel Harvey is in the frame at Birmingham...anyone else?

[Raf]

I dont know whether this of interest but I bought this sad little sword the other day. The blade definitely qualifies as hollow ground but isnt Colichemarde type.

[Mel H]

In over fifty years of collecting I can safely say that I've seen very few available swords with the Shotley Bridge name on the blade, most of which were straight blades. The more common offerings that I saw were mid 18th C. hangers with the bushy tailed fox stamp.
It seems to be clear that large quantities of blades were produced, given the length time that the industry was there, I've always assumed that many were produced without markings and subsequently may be more common than we think but we'll probably never know.
I remember being told in my earlier collecting days about the mercury filled hollow blades and thinking at the time that it was all a something of a fable, as my knowledge increased I came to the conclusion that the term was a description of the popular three sided 'smallsword' blade of the time.
I have to add that, as a collector of smallswords, I have examined a large selection of hollow blades over the years and never seen or heard of one with any indication of being made at SB, my personal view is that none were made there.
Mel.

[urbanspaceman]

Hello to all you folks reading this thread.
I have a request.
It's kind of like the compare getting the audience to join in with the show.
In my last post I inserted a clip that referred to 37 different types of blade available from the Shotley Bridge swordmakers; that's a lot of different styles, and as a complete novice I am overwhelmed by the prospect of tracking down all these blade types but I do wish to illustrate them in my intended book on the SB swordmakers.
Could I ask everyone to submit names of as many styles in use at the time?
Any pictures would be particularly appreciated.

[urbanspaceman]

Originally Posted by Mel H

The more common offerings that I saw were mid 18th C. hangers with the bushy tailed fox stamp. Mel.

Hello Mel. I don't know if you've reached that part of the thread yet, but we are considering the possibility that the fox was never used by the SB sword-makers - only by Birmingham smiths.
We are even questioning whether the Passau Wolf was actually used by the SB smiths or if it came already stamped on smuggled Solingen imports brought by Mohll for finishing at SB.
Well, I am considering all of this; although I have support with regard to the fox. It's always been associated with the SB blades, but now I'm beginning to wonder.
Do you have knowledge of blades definitely made at SB that feature the fox?
I never received a response from the vendor of the sword ascribed to Oley sold at auction last year (see earlier post).
I think it is impossible to determine the wolf issue because the SB name may easily have been added to ready made stock after the fact.