Marks in European sword

fernando · 23rd October 2010, 05:11 PM

I know this is no reasonable way to ID a sword, but i have promised to ask for you guys help

It is about a (cavalry?) sabre, with a (three?) bar hilt guard. It has the initials WI across the blade base, some 5cms (2") from the hilt and, more towards the blade, a sun with rays and a human face.
Any ideas?

Jim McDougall · 24th October 2010, 08:00 PM

Hi Fernando,
You are a man of honor, and carry out your promises, well noting of course that any identification of this sword without any visual help is pure folly. The three bar hilt on military sabres from late 18th into the 19th century would apply to any number of swords from the entirety of western armies.

Since Solingen was supplying blades for the majority, we might presume it is a Solingen blade, the mark WI at the ricasso, depending on configuration may well be an acronym or initials for the unit, or organization for whom the sword was in use. The sun with face and rays is of course from the talismanic astral symbols placed on European blades most commonly in the 18th century, but in degree into the 19th.

Thats about all the ideas I could venture without any illustrations that might lend to the possibilities of origin, otherwise its simply a military sabre of about a hundred year or more period from any one of dozens of countries.

Sorry I cant offer more,

All the best,
Jim

fernando · 24th October 2010, 09:21 PM

Hi Jim,
... and you are a kind man, needless to say

.
I am much obliged for your willing contribution to such a lost case.
You are absolutely right in that there were millions of sabres with the "human" sun symbol and zillions with the three bar hilt.
To tell the truth, i knew this was a long shot; hoping that, by some kind of miracle, someone had a sword with the same initials or recalled having seen them out there.
Soon i will visit the owner and check the initials style. Probably they are the signature type and not a maker's mark.
Eventualy also a couple pictures to post here.
Thanks again
Fernando

Ian Knight · 25th October 2010, 05:58 PM

Hello Fernando/Jim,
The only 'WI' that I can find at the moment is 'William Ironside' of England 1708-1709.
I will keep looking.
Ian

fernando · 25th October 2010, 06:04 PM

That was very nice of you, Ian

.
Thanks a lot for your input.

Jim McDougall · 26th October 2010, 12:31 AM

Ian, I wanted to thank you as well. It'll be interesting when we get more information or photos. The only WI that I am aware of is West India (docks) which typically had more cutlass type weapons with the cast iron grips, and most of these had a stirrup grip, though there was one form with another quillon I believe.

All the best,
Jim

Ron Anderson · 26th October 2010, 03:18 AM

Well, of course, without photos, this is pure speculation. But could it be WIV? with the V missing or now faded and gone.

Making this William the fourth, just prior to Victoria. And making this sword an ordinary 1821 pattern cavalry sword.

Or is that just silly?

Jim McDougall · 26th October 2010, 05:25 AM

Not silly at all Ron! All we can do is speculate at this point as we are working virtually in the dark, but that is a well reasoned thought. One thing I had forgotten in the sun face, and while we know this is a well known talismanic blade motif, I just realized that this symbol was also used in the Philippines end of the 19th century by forces I believe in Luzon (not my field so not certain).

The main thing here is input, and its rewarding to see ideas and observations placed .

All the best,
Jim

fernando · 28th October 2010, 01:06 PM

Hi guys,
First of all, please accept my apologies for having driven you in the wrong direction. The initials, although a bit tricky to decipher, are definitely not WI. Perhaps a WH, in a monogram form. This punction is much closer from the hilt than i was told; could well be a maker's mark. Curiously it is situated on the left side

... is this a common procedure?
The 78 cms (31") blade could well be for Cavalry; the three fullers are the "groove" type, instead of the "depression" seen in British sabres ... if i know what i am talking about

.
The (faded) sun is much larger than i thought.
The grip could (could) be horn.
I hope you Gentlemen may redirect your analizis and offer further coments on this sword ... namely on the markings riddle.

.

Dmitry · 28th October 2010, 02:32 PM

My $0.02
Portugal, 1820s onward. Blade could be earlier, ca.1805.

fernando · 28th October 2010, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

My $0.02
Portugal, 1820s onward. Blade could be earlier, ca.1805.

Thank you.
That also came to my mind but, unfortunately, i can't check it; there isn't much written/pictured material on Portuguese weapons.
The blade will not be national, anyhow; we don't use the letter "W".

Norman McCormick · 28th October 2010, 05:50 PM

Hi,
Could be HM?
Regards,
Norman.

fernando · 28th October 2010, 06:00 PM

Hi McNorman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi,
Could be HM?
Regards,
Norman.

I wouldn't think so. Firstly due to its direction in relation to the hilt and secondly the font style would look a bit awckward.

Dmitry · 28th October 2010, 06:30 PM

The blade conforms to the Portuguese 1806 pattern sabers, and is probably English-made, which is not surprising, considering the anorexic state of the Portuguese manufacturing at that time, and the British friendship [some would say domination]. I have seen this mark on the tangs of the English blades exported to the US in the first quarter of 1800s. The hilt is in the British 1821 style.

Ron Anderson · 28th October 2010, 11:14 PM

Hi

Yes, I agree - this sword of English origin, certainly the hilt. I have seen quite a few Portugese 1821 pattern swords. These it seems were imported from England. Usually they have the standard English blade you find in the 1821 pattern cavalry sword too.

I would guess this earlier blade was re-hilted after 1821.

Jim McDougall · 29th October 2010, 03:20 AM

I'm with you guys on the English hilt, and the likely Portuguese association, and in my opinion the blade is probably Solingen of late 18th to early 19th century. The talismanic sun with face was likely once accompanied by the usual celestial images. The stamped WH at the forte seems to suggest Solingen as well and Dmitry makes a good point on these blades being exported widely, including to the US via England.

The British 1821 patterns usually had the standard hollow ground blade with the exception of some with pipeback type blades, but these multiple fullers were typically German as far as I know. Interesting to wonder how this type of blade might have been coupled with this hilt, but as noted, the export of these weapons was considerable, and these kind of hybrids present intriguing potential.

All the best,
Jim

Ron Anderson · 29th October 2010, 03:44 AM

Hi Jim

I think all 1821 pattern swords had the pipeback blade until 1845, and changed thereafter into a similar blade type to the 1845 infantry officer's sword.

In my view, it was a good sword with a nice balance to it.

This particular combination looks quite unwieldy with the blade wider than the hilt. It does not look like a particularly happy match.

Norman McCormick · 29th October 2010, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi McNorman

I wouldn't think so. Firstly due to its direction in relation to the hilt and secondly the font style would look a bit awckward.

Hi Fernando,
I would probably think you're correct 'hoots mon the noo'.

Photo is the basket on an Osborn example of the 1821 L.C. for comparison.

Hi Ron,
The 1821 L.C. Troopers sabre had a fullered spearpoint blade before 1845.

Regards,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 29th October 2010, 06:01 PM

Well noted Ron. This does seem a bit unwieldy as this blade is of the type used on earlier stirrup hilt type sabres. Norman, you are exactly right, the fullered spear point blade was the type for the regulation M1821 as the idea was to accomplish a cut and thrust type sabre. The pipeback was present on the infantry officers sabres of 1822 until changed as Ron noted.

Also, Norman you have reminded me of another key feature, the regulation M1821 had ears on the grip as well as the lined pommel cap and notable capstan. This example has neither and more of a beaklike pommel . I am beginning to think this might be one of the later colonial style three bar hilts produced for Indian cavalry units, and this early blade of trade style was somehow joined with it. It does seem quite possible that this might have been in one of the native Indian cavalry units latter 19th century and even into the early 20th.

Naturally that proposal seems way out in left field, but while these type blades seen unwieldy in some ways, they were very much favored by Indian troopers. I know that the M1796 blade was produced by English contractors for Indian cavalry use throughout the 19th century, many of these blades did not carry the usual acceptance stamps of India ordnance depots. It is quite feasible that one of these trade blades, though from Germany may have ended up there through any number of circumstances.
For some reason, the WH seems very familiar, and seems like German placed stamps at forte.
These German triple fuller blades were produced in Solingen as intended for cutlass blades from the beginning of the 18th century into the mid 19th century. Gilkerson notes (p.88), that "...significant but unknown numbers were produced for the East and West Indian markets. Most are seen with the mystical symbols of sun, moon and stars".
All the best,
Jim

Ron Anderson · 29th October 2010, 11:16 PM

Okay, Norman, thanks for the correction.

It occurred to me this morning that a pipeback is an odd choice for a cavalry sword. Nonetheless some of the early 181 3-bar hilt swords were certainly pipeback. I was the happy owner of one of them a few years ago.

The blades of these did resemble the 1822 pattern blade, if I recall correctly.

Norman McCormick · 29th October 2010, 11:35 PM

Hi Ron,
A good number of earlier 1821 L.C. officers swords had pipeback blades.
Regards,
Norman.

23rd October 2010, 05:11 PM	#1
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,641	Marks in European sword I know this is no reasonable way to ID a sword, but i have promised to ask for you guys help It is about a (cavalry?) sabre, with a (three?) bar hilt guard. It has the initials WI across the blade base, some 5cms (2") from the hilt and, more towards the blade, a sun with rays and a human face. Any ideas?

28th October 2010, 01:06 PM	#9
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,641	Hi guys, First of all, please accept my apologies for having driven you in the wrong direction. The initials, although a bit tricky to decipher, are definitely not WI. Perhaps a WH, in a monogram form. This punction is much closer from the hilt than i was told; could well be a maker's mark. Curiously it is situated on the left side ... is this a common procedure? The 78 cms (31") blade could well be for Cavalry; the three fullers are the "groove" type, instead of the "depression" seen in British sabres ... if i know what i am talking about . The (faded) sun is much larger than i thought. The grip could (could) be horn. I hope you Gentlemen may redirect your analizis and offer further coments on this sword ... namely on the markings riddle. . Attached Images

29th October 2010, 06:01 PM	#19
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,739	Well noted Ron. This does seem a bit unwieldy as this blade is of the type used on earlier stirrup hilt type sabres. Norman, you are exactly right, the fullered spear point blade was the type for the regulation M1821 as the idea was to accomplish a cut and thrust type sabre. The pipeback was present on the infantry officers sabres of 1822 until changed as Ron noted. Also, Norman you have reminded me of another key feature, the regulation M1821 had ears on the grip as well as the lined pommel cap and notable capstan. This example has neither and more of a beaklike pommel . I am beginning to think this might be one of the later colonial style three bar hilts produced for Indian cavalry units, and this early blade of trade style was somehow joined with it. It does seem quite possible that this might have been in one of the native Indian cavalry units latter 19th century and even into the early 20th. Naturally that proposal seems way out in left field, but while these type blades seen unwieldy in some ways, they were very much favored by Indian troopers. I know that the M1796 blade was produced by English contractors for Indian cavalry use throughout the 19th century, many of these blades did not carry the usual acceptance stamps of India ordnance depots. It is quite feasible that one of these trade blades, though from Germany may have ended up there through any number of circumstances. For some reason, the WH seems very familiar, and seems like German placed stamps at forte. These German triple fuller blades were produced in Solingen as intended for cutlass blades from the beginning of the 18th century into the mid 19th century. Gilkerson notes (p.88), that "...significant but unknown numbers were produced for the East and West Indian markets. Most are seen with the mystical symbols of sun, moon and stars". All the best, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 29th October 2010 at 06:39 PM. Reason: add detail

24th October 2010, 08:00 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,739	Hi Fernando, You are a man of honor, and carry out your promises, well noting of course that any identification of this sword without any visual help is pure folly. The three bar hilt on military sabres from late 18th into the 19th century would apply to any number of swords from the entirety of western armies. Since Solingen was supplying blades for the majority, we might presume it is a Solingen blade, the mark WI at the ricasso, depending on configuration may well be an acronym or initials for the unit, or organization for whom the sword was in use. The sun with face and rays is of course from the talismanic astral symbols placed on European blades most commonly in the 18th century, but in degree into the 19th. Thats about all the ideas I could venture without any illustrations that might lend to the possibilities of origin, otherwise its simply a military sabre of about a hundred year or more period from any one of dozens of countries. Sorry I cant offer more, All the best, Jim

24th October 2010, 09:21 PM	#3
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,641	Hi Jim, ... and you are a kind man, needless to say . I am much obliged for your willing contribution to such a lost case. You are absolutely right in that there were millions of sabres with the "human" sun symbol and zillions with the three bar hilt. To tell the truth, i knew this was a long shot; hoping that, by some kind of miracle, someone had a sword with the same initials or recalled having seen them out there. Soon i will visit the owner and check the initials style. Probably they are the signature type and not a maker's mark. Eventualy also a couple pictures to post here. Thanks again Fernando

25th October 2010, 05:58 PM	#4
Ian Knight Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: East Sussex, England. Posts: 103	Hello Fernando/Jim, The only 'WI' that I can find at the moment is 'William Ironside' of England 1708-1709. I will keep looking. Ian

25th October 2010, 06:04 PM	#5
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,641	That was very nice of you, Ian . Thanks a lot for your input.

26th October 2010, 12:31 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,739	Ian, I wanted to thank you as well. It'll be interesting when we get more information or photos. The only WI that I am aware of is West India (docks) which typically had more cutlass type weapons with the cast iron grips, and most of these had a stirrup grip, though there was one form with another quillon I believe. All the best, Jim

26th October 2010, 03:18 AM	#7
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Well, of course, without photos, this is pure speculation. But could it be WIV? with the V missing or now faded and gone. Making this William the fourth, just prior to Victoria. And making this sword an ordinary 1821 pattern cavalry sword. Or is that just silly?

26th October 2010, 05:25 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,739	Not silly at all Ron! All we can do is speculate at this point as we are working virtually in the dark, but that is a well reasoned thought. One thing I had forgotten in the sun face, and while we know this is a well known talismanic blade motif, I just realized that this symbol was also used in the Philippines end of the 19th century by forces I believe in Luzon (not my field so not certain). The main thing here is input, and its rewarding to see ideas and observations placed . All the best, Jim

28th October 2010, 02:32 PM	#10
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	My $0.02 Portugal, 1820s onward. Blade could be earlier, ca.1805.

28th October 2010, 05:50 PM	#12
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi, Could be HM? Regards, Norman.

28th October 2010, 06:30 PM	#14
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	The blade conforms to the Portuguese 1806 pattern sabers, and is probably English-made, which is not surprising, considering the anorexic state of the Portuguese manufacturing at that time, and the British friendship [some would say domination]. I have seen this mark on the tangs of the English blades exported to the US in the first quarter of 1800s. The hilt is in the British 1821 style.

28th October 2010, 11:14 PM	#15
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Hi Yes, I agree - this sword of English origin, certainly the hilt. I have seen quite a few Portugese 1821 pattern swords. These it seems were imported from England. Usually they have the standard English blade you find in the 1821 pattern cavalry sword too. I would guess this earlier blade was re-hilted after 1821.

29th October 2010, 03:20 AM	#16
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,739	I'm with you guys on the English hilt, and the likely Portuguese association, and in my opinion the blade is probably Solingen of late 18th to early 19th century. The talismanic sun with face was likely once accompanied by the usual celestial images. The stamped WH at the forte seems to suggest Solingen as well and Dmitry makes a good point on these blades being exported widely, including to the US via England. The British 1821 patterns usually had the standard hollow ground blade with the exception of some with pipeback type blades, but these multiple fullers were typically German as far as I know. Interesting to wonder how this type of blade might have been coupled with this hilt, but as noted, the export of these weapons was considerable, and these kind of hybrids present intriguing potential. All the best, Jim

29th October 2010, 03:44 AM	#17
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Hi Jim I think all 1821 pattern swords had the pipeback blade until 1845, and changed thereafter into a similar blade type to the 1845 infantry officer's sword. In my view, it was a good sword with a nice balance to it. This particular combination looks quite unwieldy with the blade wider than the hilt. It does not look like a particularly happy match.

29th October 2010, 11:16 PM	#20
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Okay, Norman, thanks for the correction. It occurred to me this morning that a pipeback is an odd choice for a cavalry sword. Nonetheless some of the early 181 3-bar hilt swords were certainly pipeback. I was the happy owner of one of them a few years ago. The blades of these did resemble the 1822 pattern blade, if I recall correctly.

29th October 2010, 11:35 PM	#21
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi Ron, A good number of earlier 1821 L.C. officers swords had pipeback blades. Regards, Norman.