Suggestions for care and respect of Javanese and Balinese Keris.

Mudi · 13th July 2006, 01:36 AM

This discussion is not make me angry. I wish my English was better. This is good for practice and talk about keris. Thank you for patience and understanding.

Pak Nechesh I did not mean to say you would stop to feed your keris. I only meant to say that if you start you should continue. I am sorry for not understanding.

Last night I spend time to research more this animism as religion and as part of other religion. I ask a good friend who is Catholic about this and he suggest to look at exorcism. So I found some interest things that sound much like some parts of animism to me. What are thoughts of others? This I found in the Catholic Encyclopedia

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05709a.htm

Exorcism is the act of driving out, or warding off, demons, or evil spirits, from persons, places, or things, which are believed to be possessed or infested by them, or are liable to become victims or instruments of their malice.

According to Catholic belief demons or fallen angels retain their natural power, as intelligent beings, of acting on the material universe, and using material objects and directing material forces for their own wicked ends.

This is what Pak Maisey say about animism

Animism may be briefly defined as:-

A belief that individual spirits inhabit objects , that spirits are separable from physical bodies, and that a spiritual force permeates the universe.

To me this animism belief and Catholic belief sound the same. What is wrong with my understanding?

I have not time yet to read Pak Maisey current writing. Please give me time as this post I do when not on line.

nechesh · 13th July 2006, 02:03 AM

Pak Mudi, without digressing into a full blown discussion about theology. which i think would be inappropriate in this forum, Catholicism does not embrace animism as it sees these spirits as only being evil and destructive. Therefore only an evil spirit would be able to inhabit a keris. This is not an acceptance of animism, it is a rejection. This is not how animism is dealt with in Indonesia. While there are cetainly bad spirits there are also good and helpful ones. It is heretical in the catholic faith to listen to or use these spirits to help you in your life regardless of how you might personally view the goodness of any particular spirt. This is just brushing on the differences, but i hope it helps your understanding.

Thank you Alan for a very clear, concise, no nonsense explanation on the magickal and mystical relationship of keris and man.

Mudi · 13th July 2006, 02:31 AM

I just read Lei Shen Dao and I am happy that someone could explain in good English. May I also say when drawing keris to keep it out and away from your face and pointed away from your face. In Indonesia we often give a silent ask for permission to the keris to remove it from sarong.

Pak Maisey, with respect I do not think I can discuss Islam in Indonesia with you more. Again with no anger but with respect anthropologists are not trained to know what is in the hearts and minds of Indonesian Muslims.

You wrote

The reasons for an Indonesian, especially a person of Javanese cultural background, undertaking the Haj are perhaps not as clear cut as they may seem to be.I will not comment further on this matter in the open Forum, but I am prepared to comment privately.

Pak if I not understand what you write I am sorry but you have already commented publicly and you suggest the reasons Muslims in Indonesia pilgrim Haj is not for devotion to Islam. I will not take offending if you explain what you suggest. If you open the door you should be able to go through it.

Back to keris you write about bad luck keris. You write

If the dukun is successful, the bad luck will cease, if he is unsuccessful and the bad luck continues, the owner of the keris will search for somebody who is prepared to take the keris as a gift. When a new owner accepts the keris as a gift, clearly he does not believe that it can bring him bad luck:- if he did, he would not accept it.

I think you mean to write

When a new owner accepts the keris as a gift, clearly he does not know that it can bring him bad luck:- if he did, he would not accept it.

Pak Nechesh wrote

Catholicism does not embrace animism as it sees these spirits as only being evil and destructive.

You mean that about exorcism. I understand. But what about the holy spirit and the belief that some religious statues and relics are taken over by the good spirit and miracles happen?

Thank you for your patience.

nechesh · 13th July 2006, 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mudi

You mean that about exorcism. I understand. But what about the holy spirit and the belief that some religious statues and relics are taken over by the good spirit and miracles happen?

Thank you for your patience.

What you describe here is not animism or at least a good Catholic would never understand it as such. As i mentioned before, this is not the place for theological debate and a discussion on the deeper meanings of the holy trinity would only hijack this thread beyond recognition. The concept of the spirit of a monotheistic omnipotent GOD should not be confused with the concept of many various, seperate and independent spirits inhabiting, inbodying and driving the material world. If you are really interested in continuing this line of discussion i would be more than happy to do so in private messages so as not to disrupt the board.

A. G. Maisey · 13th July 2006, 03:26 AM

Pak Mudi, I can understand perfectly your reluctance for further discussion of Islam with me, however, I would make the point that I have yet to encounter such reluctance amongst my many Muslim friends, most especially when the work of Muslim anthropologists is under discussion.

As I have previously remarked:- I do not tender my remarks as personal opinion, but as representative of the body of academic opinion. That opinion is comprised of not only work generated by western anthropologists, but also work generated by anthropologists who are adherents of Islam, including Indonesians.

I do understand that your misspelling of Al Qur'an was simply a typographical error, and could not possibly have been intended as any form of slight.Still, one would expect any good Muslim to at least be able to spell the name of the Book containing the word of the Prophet. Most especially so when that good Muslim, a native speaker of Indonesian , and his own area dialect, is able to consistently demonstrate such excellence in the spelling of English words.

As to my reluctance to comment further on the reasons for some people undertaking the haj, I have implied nothing, other than my respect for the sensitivities involved in this matter.

If you care to draw conclusions based upon what I have not said, that is your prerogative, but please do not accuse me of things I have neither said nor implied.

Regarding my comments on "bad luck" keris.

I said precisely what I meant to say.

No more : no less.

And I back my statement with a very long and intensely personal relationship with the world of the keris.

Pak Mudi, I respect your right to hold whatever opinions you may wish to hold, and I assure you that I have not the slightest desire to alter any of your opinions.

On the other hand, I try, in so far as I am able, not to present my personal opinions but rather to present statements which can be substantiated with evidence.

Where I am unavoidably required to present an opinion based upon my own study or experience, I am prepared to present this experience, or provide references to allow substantiation of my statements.

Regretably, a Forum of the nature of this one is not the place to present long and convoluted logical arguments or endless bibliographies, however, if you care to contact me privately I will be delighted to provide you with references that may better help you to understand some of the matters I have addressed.

13th July 2006, 01:36 AM	#1
Mudi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Makassar, (Ujung Pandang), Sulawesi, Indonesia Posts: 38	This discussion is not make me angry. I wish my English was better. This is good for practice and talk about keris. Thank you for patience and understanding. Pak Nechesh I did not mean to say you would stop to feed your keris. I only meant to say that if you start you should continue. I am sorry for not understanding. Last night I spend time to research more this animism as religion and as part of other religion. I ask a good friend who is Catholic about this and he suggest to look at exorcism. So I found some interest things that sound much like some parts of animism to me. What are thoughts of others? This I found in the Catholic Encyclopedia http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05709a.htm Exorcism is the act of driving out, or warding off, demons, or evil spirits, from persons, places, or things, which are believed to be possessed or infested by them, or are liable to become victims or instruments of their malice. According to Catholic belief demons or fallen angels retain their natural power, as intelligent beings, of acting on the material universe, and using material objects and directing material forces for their own wicked ends. This is what Pak Maisey say about animism Animism may be briefly defined as:- A belief that individual spirits inhabit objects , that spirits are separable from physical bodies, and that a spiritual force permeates the universe. To me this animism belief and Catholic belief sound the same. What is wrong with my understanding? I have not time yet to read Pak Maisey current writing. Please give me time as this post I do when not on line.

13th July 2006, 02:03 AM	#2
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Pak Mudi, without digressing into a full blown discussion about theology. which i think would be inappropriate in this forum, Catholicism does not embrace animism as it sees these spirits as only being evil and destructive. Therefore only an evil spirit would be able to inhabit a keris. This is not an acceptance of animism, it is a rejection. This is not how animism is dealt with in Indonesia. While there are cetainly bad spirits there are also good and helpful ones. It is heretical in the catholic faith to listen to or use these spirits to help you in your life regardless of how you might personally view the goodness of any particular spirt. This is just brushing on the differences, but i hope it helps your understanding. Thank you Alan for a very clear, concise, no nonsense explanation on the magickal and mystical relationship of keris and man.

13th July 2006, 02:31 AM	#3
Mudi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Makassar, (Ujung Pandang), Sulawesi, Indonesia Posts: 38	I just read Lei Shen Dao and I am happy that someone could explain in good English. May I also say when drawing keris to keep it out and away from your face and pointed away from your face. In Indonesia we often give a silent ask for permission to the keris to remove it from sarong. Pak Maisey, with respect I do not think I can discuss Islam in Indonesia with you more. Again with no anger but with respect anthropologists are not trained to know what is in the hearts and minds of Indonesian Muslims. You wrote The reasons for an Indonesian, especially a person of Javanese cultural background, undertaking the Haj are perhaps not as clear cut as they may seem to be.I will not comment further on this matter in the open Forum, but I am prepared to comment privately. Pak if I not understand what you write I am sorry but you have already commented publicly and you suggest the reasons Muslims in Indonesia pilgrim Haj is not for devotion to Islam. I will not take offending if you explain what you suggest. If you open the door you should be able to go through it. Back to keris you write about bad luck keris. You write If the dukun is successful, the bad luck will cease, if he is unsuccessful and the bad luck continues, the owner of the keris will search for somebody who is prepared to take the keris as a gift. When a new owner accepts the keris as a gift, clearly he does not believe that it can bring him bad luck:- if he did, he would not accept it. I think you mean to write When a new owner accepts the keris as a gift, clearly he does not know that it can bring him bad luck:- if he did, he would not accept it. Pak Nechesh wrote Catholicism does not embrace animism as it sees these spirits as only being evil and destructive. You mean that about exorcism. I understand. But what about the holy spirit and the belief that some religious statues and relics are taken over by the good spirit and miracles happen? Thank you for your patience.

13th July 2006, 03:26 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,754	Pak Mudi, I can understand perfectly your reluctance for further discussion of Islam with me, however, I would make the point that I have yet to encounter such reluctance amongst my many Muslim friends, most especially when the work of Muslim anthropologists is under discussion. As I have previously remarked:- I do not tender my remarks as personal opinion, but as representative of the body of academic opinion. That opinion is comprised of not only work generated by western anthropologists, but also work generated by anthropologists who are adherents of Islam, including Indonesians. I do understand that your misspelling of Al Qur'an was simply a typographical error, and could not possibly have been intended as any form of slight.Still, one would expect any good Muslim to at least be able to spell the name of the Book containing the word of the Prophet. Most especially so when that good Muslim, a native speaker of Indonesian , and his own area dialect, is able to consistently demonstrate such excellence in the spelling of English words. As to my reluctance to comment further on the reasons for some people undertaking the haj, I have implied nothing, other than my respect for the sensitivities involved in this matter. If you care to draw conclusions based upon what I have not said, that is your prerogative, but please do not accuse me of things I have neither said nor implied. Regarding my comments on "bad luck" keris. I said precisely what I meant to say. No more : no less. And I back my statement with a very long and intensely personal relationship with the world of the keris. Pak Mudi, I respect your right to hold whatever opinions you may wish to hold, and I assure you that I have not the slightest desire to alter any of your opinions. On the other hand, I try, in so far as I am able, not to present my personal opinions but rather to present statements which can be substantiated with evidence. Where I am unavoidably required to present an opinion based upon my own study or experience, I am prepared to present this experience, or provide references to allow substantiation of my statements. Regretably, a Forum of the nature of this one is not the place to present long and convoluted logical arguments or endless bibliographies, however, if you care to contact me privately I will be delighted to provide you with references that may better help you to understand some of the matters I have addressed.